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Blogs

  The Fall Of Math
by Adam Bishop on 04/23/09 06:24:00 pm   Featured Blogs
33 comments Share on Twitter Share on Facebook RSS
 
 
The following blog was, unless otherwise noted, independently written by a member of Gamasutra's game development community. The thoughts and opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of Gamasutra or its parent company.

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Video games are, primarily, math.  It's kind of an odd statement to make.  People constantly complain that our society lacks decent mathematical literacy, and yet an activity that virtually all adolescents and teenagers engage in is based almost entirely on math. 

How many teens can manage the complicated build orders and resource management that a game like Company of Heroes requires?  How many teenagers who would never think about taking a physics class can nevertheless manage the understanding of tire traction and weight distribution that playing Gran Turismo necessitates?  But that's a bit of a side issue.  What I want to talk about isn't just math from a gameplay standpoint, but also from a game design standpoint.

So games are mostly math problems, right?  This isn't really a new insight: Raph Koster was talking about it a couple years ago, and I'm sure someone I'm not aware of was talking about if before that. 

To some degree, there will always be math in games.  Even reduced to its simplest form, something like the movement of a cursor or an avatar is still a function of arithmetic.  There's no way to get past the need for programming to involve math.  But there are ways to get past gameplay as math.  But why would we want to do that?  What's wrong with math?

What's Wrong With Math?

Nothing, necessarily.  I love playing hockey games, and I count the Civilization series among my favourites, and math is an integral part of those games.  The problem is when math is our answer to all problems.  To some degree I touched on this issue back in my discussion of morality systems in games.  In role-playing games, even social situations are reduced to numbers. 

My chances of succeeding at charming someone in Fallout 3 are based on a statistic, not on what I choose to say, how I say it, how I've treated that person previously, or any other similar factor.  In Mass Effect, my dialogue options are limited to the ones that I have the right statistics to see.  This leads to players putting skill points into the options that they think they'll want later, rather than organically choosing the options that are most appealing to them for whatever reason.  The fact that RPGs - especially Western RPGs - have their roots in pen and paper games like Dungeons and Dragons certainly has a lot to do with this.  But isn't it time we got past that?

The focus on numbers and statistics also comes from video games' heritage in arcades.  Early games didn't just have scores, scoring was the game.  And for a long time, a significant portion of games remained about attaining a high score.  Now games that challenge you to beat a particular score are not all that common, and are generally categorised as retro. 

Yet games that are not fundamentally about scores still try to measure the player as though they were.  The Metal Gear Solid and Silent Hill games, for example, grade the player's performance once they have been completed.  Metal Gear Solid 2 even contained a password function to compare your score with that of other players.  But does that even make sense?  MGS isn't a game about scoring. 

It is, more than most other games, about its narrative, and it is to a large degree about the player's ingenuity.  So why does it feel the need to try to measure you?  An even more striking example is raised by Mark Sample in an article in the academic journal Game Studies - the video game based on the TV series 24 measures how well you interrogate/torture an NPC.  Apparently your "skill" at interrogation/torture can be reduced to a number.  Why are we telling players that sort of thing?  I'll answer that question in just a minute.

Another issue that I have with the excessive focus on mathematical problems in video games is that math problems virtually always have an optimal solution.  This leads to behaviour generally known as "maximising": players will attempt to discover the ideal mathematical way to achieve the goal of the game.  But I don't really want to play games in which there is a mathematically "correct" decision (or more likely, series of decisions) to make. 

It may sound like I'm asking for games to be free of consequences, but what I actually want is something I've mentioned before - for games to have meaningful consequences.  But I do believe that existence precedes essence, so as far as I'm concerned, there can never be a mathematical way to determine meaning.  Instead, activities and results in games should have meaning because the team making the game have given them meaning.

The Social Context

There are social reasons that I feel this way as well.  The way our current society is structured is very much about giving everything a number to define it.  The value of the work you do is measured in "dollars per hour" (or euros per hour, rupees per hour, etc.); your value as a student (and, implicitly, as a human being) is measured in grades; as anyone who has followed the recent financial catastrophes knows, Wall Street financiers have even given numbers to assets that don't actually exist.  Our entire culture is based around the idea that everything can be measured. 

But when you stop and think about it, the things that actually matter can't possibly be given a number.  What number would you attach to the enjoyment you gained from the last great book you read?  How much money is the Amazon rain forest worth?  What value does your love for your family and friends have? 

The idea that everything can be measured is deeply harmful and quite obviously untrue, and people making games have, I believe, at least some responsibility to reflect the world honestly.  And games can't possibly reflect the world honestly if they continue lying to the player by telling them that everything important can be measured.

How Do We Make Games That Aren't Math-y?

So now I've probably alienated a significant chunk of the people reading this with all of my criticisms, but what should we do instead?  There are two main ways that I can think of, but I've only ever really seen one of them attempted.  The first one is through logical puzzles.  Now, some people will say logical puzzles are essentially a form of abstract math anyway, so maybe you won't grant me that one, but I think there's a clear difference between, say, Monkey Island, and the kinds of maximising that games with damage values that the player is aware of engender. 

Braid would be a good recent example of this category.  Because the player does need to do things like timing and spacing jumps, there is a degree of math involved, but the puzzles are primarily logical puzzles.  Significant portions of Indigo Prophecy would also count.  While there are sections of the game where the player's inputs are measured numerically, especially towards the end, there are also very large portions of the game that require no math - the opening scene in the bathroom, for example, or most of the police investigation portions.

The other major way that I can think of is through narrative choice.  Unlike in recent RPGs, however, the player's narrative choices should not be based on any measurable attribute of the player's avatar, and the outcomes themselves should not be numerical.  The player should be able to make their choices based either on what is valuable to them, or potentially what the game requires them to find value in.  And the results of those decisions should affect the narrative, rather than the player's attributes.

Now, many people will complain that such a game is just a glorified Choose Your Own Adventure.  And perhaps on a basic level they would be right.  But on a basic level Starcraft is just a spreadsheet.  This is a case where the whole is definitely more than the sum of its parts.  Starcraft is a spreadsheet with an interesting setting and series of interactions layered over top of it.  There is no reason that the same thing can't be done with narrative.

 
 
Comments

Raul Aliaga
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I think that this is just another way to look at what James Portnow wrote about choice, dressed with an unnecessary rant about math, which was reduced to arithmetic as Adam himself mentioned. I see the value of more narrative involved in the experiences crafted for videogames, but that won't happen blaming the lack of space for narrative on other stuff like language -creating the distinction of choice and problem- or math -for like, making all the systems coded to implement gameplay, exist.



Adam's belief of existence preceding essence stands for all this: A videogame so deeply meaningful, that reflects our world and somehow exists without a delicately designed and coded mathematical system supporting it, should **exists** before believing the essence of this hold back in narrative is rooted on the way videogames are built.



Don't get me wrong anyway, I'm no way near against Adam. In my humble opinion, we should learn more about a medium like theater as some other person on these blogs said, because they craft experiences on stage for an audience too, with very limited resources. Moreover, when it's carefully done, they don't just entertain people, they give a whole bunch of scenes and moments that people can take to keep extending the experience further when they leave the theater, and even deeper when they share them and realize everybody got something different. That sounds familiar from good games, isn't it?

John Mawhorter
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Math may underlie everything (physics has yet to work out the exact math), but that doesn't really give a good description of how we experience it. Certainly hardcore games are targeted at nerds who are good at certain activities and so you might say that video games preference analytical thinking more than social or creative or associational, etc. But even those games with a lot of "math" in them are really just testing on-the-fly physical reactions (quake) or deep strategetic thinking (civ4). There is a mathematical solution to quake (or at least one can imagine one), but no human being has the physical dexterity or visual acuity to achieve it.



All that aside I agree with the basic call for more and different interactive experiences.



PS I can only post one blog item? is this an error.... whenever I add an item it just writes over the previous entry?

Robert Farr
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I seem to remember that Baldur's Gate had Charisma as one of its major attributes, but it tended to only affect things like shop prices... Actual conversation sequences (Such as the person in one of the pubs in the first town you enter, who is actively hostile to adventurers but can be talked out of trying to punch you) were still a matter of the player making choices and seeing outcomes.



More of this, perhaps?

Caleb Garner
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I think the math literacy is more complex formulas and math disciplines.. most games don't require a player to think much beyond A/S/M/D stuff... which are pretty much the main math that any human needs to manage basic day to day stuff... as for things like turning in a game.. that kind of math is not math players need to (and most likely can't) express on paper... I'm no math wiz either... I couldn't give you the formula for how I know how far I need to step when I run at an varying speeds when I sprint though a forest... it's just second nature..



That aside Adam I understand where you're coming from and agree.. but we have to consider that as much as marketers will make game advertisements sound like they really are making advancements and our own aspirations.. is that video games are made on computers.. and computers are machines driven by math. I'm sure we'll get there in time, but until AI advances to a point where either we have systems fast enough to instantiate masterfully crafted AI systems, but for now it's entirely too much work for games to do any better than they are currently..



I believe the people who worked on Fallout 3 were not like.. "bah.. we don't need smart monsters/npcs.." the reason why we're not seeing intelligent AI systems is because they are simply too hard to do with the current technology and/or so time consuming it would stifle the game cost/release date... If it were possible I'm sure we'd see it.. I really doubt it's a lack of trying or that we didn't put smart enough people on the job...



Most likely what someone should (probably something out there already) is to get a standalone AI system.. much like physics engines.. having an AI system that companies could scale / implement might be the kind of turnkey solution. Hell, having an AI card? I'm sure this wouldn't market well.. but just thinking in the vein of dedicated system resources.. oh well more speculation..



I think the moral here is that it’s very difficult to apply human/abstract thinking to a machine that runs at a fraction of the speed our brains work at, which is how human values and such can be derived through billions of calculations/comparison and past data we've been collecting our whole lives. to expect a machine can match the human condition is simply too much to ask current technology. We'll get there eventually and it will arrive when the technology allows it, not for lack of trying until then...



I would look to the independent game developers to find breakthroughs in this before hoping AAA titles will be willing to devote the RnD time/money out of their budgets to make groundbreaking technologies. Maybe the online world could fuel AI development. Possibly social/neural networking data could be funneled int some database...

Tom Newman
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I totally understand the need for some games to put the numbers in the background, but everything can be broken down to math. Math is the language of nature, and even our human real-life choices can be represented by mathematical equations. One of the many reasons I love videogames is because they take many real-world situations (mental and physical) and do just that. As a matter of fact, when I make "real world" decisions, I try and break those down to math as well. If I ask my girlfriend to stop watching TV so I can play a game, I know there is only going to be a 10-25% of her agreement. If I start making dinner (which I rarely do) and state that I'll be playing after we eat, I know my odds will increase to about 75-85%. When I hit the snooze button on my alarm, I know that will decrease the hour I allow myself to get ready for work by 17%. The point of the post is well taken, but I have a hard time seperating math from pretty much anything.

Raul Aliaga
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I agree with Tom and Caleb, and I think that maybe the point Adam was trying to make is that the simplification in numbers the player can see for the choices they made it's too obvious, and we need to make them **feel** they're making complex choices and their outcomes in more subtle ways than numbers and odds.



I remember my TA from a computer graphics course who told me the key to computer graphics: it's modern illusionism. If you try to render all the complex graphics we can see in the real world by simulating them, it's not just hard, it's computationally expensive. So the key it's to make things look real, by some clever tecniques, as seeing the reflection of a boat on the water by replicating that boat under itself with a surface of moving water on top of it. It's a simple solution, looks nice and it isn't a complex light ray bouncing on the water from real life.



But such a thing for AI in the experiences players feel comes with a trade-off: the ability of a player to learn how those systems work in order to take advantage of them for his own purposes. Numbers can be too simple and childish, it's true, but they're also simple enough to learn for an average player to make choices as he/she see fit. So a progress on those AI systems need not only to be feasible and computationally efficient, they should come with a properly designed learning curve in order to not make players feel overwhelmed by complexity.



That's why those on our 20-30 loved games when we were growing up, they made us feel like heroes with sufficiently simple and learnable systems to master.

Jeff Beaudoin
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It seems like you have missed the point of math, which is comparative analysis.



Everything CAN be measured by math -- to think otherwise is sort of naive and romantic, but ultimately unrealistic. Applying arbitrary values (which our number system is a collection of) to your examples grants me the following:

The last book I read > the book I read just before it.

The value of my family > the value of the rain forests.

These are mathematical expressions, and though they don't involve specific numbers, they still convey information based on math. In game terms, you assign arbitrary values (family = 374, forest = 243, for instance) in order to handle events and determine outcomes.



I will use KotOR as an example, because it is obvious:

Does it really take 16 good actions to gain a 25% leaning towards the Light Side in the Star Wars universe? No, probably not. But, arbitrarily, 16 good actions fits with the design of the game's pacing, conversation, character advancement, and party member interaction systems that are in place. I made these numbers up, but that doesn't really matter.



The point is that the player doesn't see these numbers, they just get the abstract representation via the light side/dark side meter or through changing conversation trees. The numbers are affected by their actions, but not in a way that is directly obvious to them. Even if they can see them, the numbers are abstract and largely meaningless in terms of influencing the players decisions. The player will make the light side or dark side choice based on their intention for the character, the math just allows that choice to have an impact by comparing it with the state of the game world and their past choices.



It is fine to wish that game choices shouldn't be based on a numerical value, but in practice this doesn't make any sense. Math is necessary to give choices meaning because it grants them value in comparison to other choices.

Bob McIntyre
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"But when you stop and think about it, the things that actually matter can't possibly be given a number. What number would you attach to the enjoyment you gained from the last great book you read? How much money is the Amazon rain forest worth? What value does your love for your family and friends have?"



I disagree. In economics, the term used is "satisfaction." How much "satisfaction" do you get out of reading that book? There's no scientific unit of measurement (yet?) for that, but there is a way to measure it, and that way is "would you rather have the book or X amount of money?" Eventually, I'll find a value of X where the book is not worth buying. And even if we name something, like your own survival, that is seemingly of infinite value (i.e. no monetary offer will be sufficient for you to kill yourself), there are still things other than money than I can put in that question. People die for their most deeply-held beliefs. People die for their countries. And most parents would likely trade their own survival for that of their children. Of course, it's very unpleasant to consider things like that, but the point is that almost everything, even things that we might think are of infinite value to us, can often be prioritized. Once something is prioritized and isn't the top priority in all cases, its value is shown to be finite.



I think it may be extremely hard (and unpleasant), especially for people who aren't very introspective, to calculate a numerical value, a monetary value, or even a priority ordering of the things that are most important to them. "Extremely hard and unpleasant" is not the same as "impossible," though.

Adam Bishop
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It seems as though I have a vastly different world view than the past two people who have posted. Many things in my life simply do not have values. The statement "The value of my family > the value of the rain forests" is non-sensical to me, because neither of them has a value, and they certainly can't be compared. The statement "I love my girlfriend" is an absolute and self-contained statement. I do not love her x amount, and I do not love her more or less than other things. I do not love my girlfriend more than I love my friends, I do not love my friends more than my girlfriend, and I do not love them equivalently - there simply is no way to give them a value. You could say "Well, if you had to choose one over the other, which would you choose?" My response would be that I would either choose randomly, or I would choose based on factors entirely unrelated to my love towards them - there simply is no way for me to compare their value because *they do not have a value*.

Bart Stewart
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Excellent essay; it comes at an interesting question from an illuminating direction.



What's odd is that I find myself agreeing with the conclusion despite disagreeing with some of the premises (as Tom, Jeff, and Bob have).



I would say that games tend to be "math-y" not because this mathiness is artificially imposed on games by developers blinded by some "everything can be (and should be) measured" social construct, but because absolute reality is inherently math-y. Where we don't perceive the math, that's because it's been reified into physical objects and processes... but it's still/always there. Math specifies form and behavior.



Accordingly, everything can be quantified. And beyond that (but different from it), many quantities can be assigned a value according to their importance to us as human beings. Of course we can put a value on the entire Amazon rain forest. Insurance companies use math to create actuarial tables in order to quanity values for all kinds of things, up to and including human life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_table). Expecting to be able to measure things does no harm; it is in fact an attitude helpful to a culture of effective decision-making.



The only harm comes from believing that quantification -- reducing a thing to numbers -- is the *only* way to understand a thing that really matters. Nurses have a saying: "The chart is not the patient." The point here is not that charts (numbers) have no value; it's that human beings are more than just the sum of the numbers that uniquely describe some of their aspects.



So it is, I think, with games. Games are built on numbers... but why should games be *only* about numbers?



I see no problem with representing things and specifying their behaviors in games with numbers and math. That's both necessary and desirable; numbers and math allow things and their behaviors to be represented by computer programs. The problem with games (that is, with game developers and game players) is that we have so far been satisfied with stopping at the math.



Competing to see who can rack up the highest score is one valid expression of being human. But it's far from the only way.



Where are the games that engage our humanity in deeper ways? What about games designed to reward promote compassion, or explore creativity, or expand perception? Those games can be made -- why aren't they made more often?



Maybe the real question is: how many potential gamers are ready to go beyond easily-understood kill counts to more abstract goals?



Is this a supply-side or demand-side problem?

Jeff Beaudoin
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If things don't have value, they are meaningless, as are choices without value.



Choosing between two things that are "valueless" to you does not really prove anything, except for that you haven't analyzed either value fully. Would you chose your girlfriend over a chocolate bar? I assume the answer is yes. This gives your relationship a value, whether you want it to or not. If the answer is no, you either a sociopath or you hate your girlfriend, both of which don't seem to be the case.



Regardless of this tangent, keeping track of numerical values is what allows choices to exist in games. The idea of avoiding math by affecting the narrative rather than stats is entirely incorrect. Even in a game like Indigo Prophecy, if the choices you make affect the narrative then comparative analysis (math) is being used. Logic puzzles in Monkey Island determine the state of the world based on your progress through each puzzle, which is done by comparing what you have done to what is required. Making choices that solve the puzzles have more "value" than choices that accomplish nothing.

Logan Margulies
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I too agree with Jeff. It's not about the numbers per se, it's about the presence of a "value" and its impact upon a choice. If I were forced to choose between my girlfriend or my family, I would presumably make that choice based upon the "value" I place on each relative to the other. Now the nuances of that value would be different than, say, the choice I'd make between a Red Bull and a candy bar. But there is still an underlying value that motivates the choice.



Like Adam Smith would argue (and no offense Tim, but I'll take him to Fromm any day) the decisions we make, even the most seemingly emotional or sacred, are made with some relative calculus of value. True, you might not attach a "value" to your family in a vacuum. But if you are in a situation where you must evaluate your family vis a vis another entity, you most likely will assign some sort of value, if even subconsciously.



The problem isn't that games do this, it's perhaps that they leave the numbers too exposed. The problem isn't that there are mathematical values undergirding dialogue choices in Mass Effect, rather it's that you have direct numerical values in Persuasion, Intimidation, Paragon and Renegade so that it simply turns into a number crunch.



Having a system of comparative value isn't the problem, in my opinion you're going to have a much harder time making a coherent game without it. But leaving the numerical workings of it exposed so that you play the values rather than the character, that's what we need to move past.

Branden MacAffee
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I think it is a mistake to think because math is used to describe natural phenomenon that it IS natural phenomenon.

Adam Bishop
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Man, this has veered off a fair bit from what I was trying to get at. I should take responsibility for that though, since my responses have been a bit off-topic. I'm going to try to bring this back to game design a bit.



For the sake of argument, let's say I accept that decision making is fundamentally mathematical and that at its core, everything is math. OK, but how does that help us make better games? At the end of the day, our *experiences* of things are not mathematical, even if at a theoretical core they can be reduced to that. So I've made my measurable "value" decision as a player. . . now what? What does the game do with that? Does it simply assign a number to the result? Well, I find that to be shallow and unfulfilling. What mathematical equation do we throw into our games to describe "loneliness" to players? Or "love"? Or "guilt"?



Movies, books, and music are all fantastic at finding ways to describe those things to people, and they do it without equations. Reading Crime and Punishment, I totally understand, I even begin to feel, the sense of guilt that Raskolnikov has. And yet games that feature consequences that apply directly to *me* fail to make me feel guilt, even when they want to. And I think a big part of that is because games try to describe the consequences of actions in very explicit mathematical terms, while Crime and Punishment describes them pyschologically. When it comes down to it, even if guilt can be reduced to some sort of chemical equation, we don't *experience* it that way, so when games try to capture the equation but not the experience, they ultimately feel shallow.

Joe Cooper
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Everyone here has completely lost the plot. Bishop wrote a bit pompously and now everyone is talking about math and feelings. Let me try to explain this another way.



Obviously all software is fundamentally math. Bishop complains that the games are too overtly math, and cause players to approach problems mathematically when they wouldn't be in real life.



I think the game Clocktower offers a good example of an alternative approach:



There was a scene where you have to escape from this house. There is a vicious dog in the way. The solution was to throw washing detergent in its eye.



While the software must implement this mechanically, the player doesn't approach the problem mathematically. They don't think about how many hit points the detergent has.



Instead, to solve it, you must draw on life experience; everyone knows soap in the eyes is ample distraction.



Key point; the gameplay was written, like a book, rather than modeled, like a chemical reaction.



Of course obviously the reason this isn't done more often is its just a lot of work. You can't build a huge, "open ended" game like Morrowind like this. The workload would be obscene. So instead they built an abstract, simple model of reality and built a medievalish facade over it. Works well enough.



Still I think it isn't off-base for him to raise awareness of this other approach, so that more game developers think to use it as appropriate.

güzide tk
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Most likely what someone should (probably something out there already) is to get a standalone AI system.. much like physics engines.. having an AI system that companies could scale / implement might be the kind of turnkey solution. Hell, having an AI card? I'm sure this wouldn't market well.. but just thinking in the vein of dedicated system resources.. oh well more speculation.. http://www.burun-estetigi.info/

raigan burns
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"When it comes down to it, even if guilt can be reduced to some sort of chemical equation, we don't *experience* it that way, so when games try to capture the equation but not the experience, they ultimately feel shallow."



I think this suggests that games aren't as well-suited as literature at evoking certain experiences. But then again, games are definitely better than literature at other sorts of things.



It's funny that no one criticizes architecture for not being very good at creating narrative experiences, because it's obviously good for other, different, things. The same could be said about dance.. dance and architecture obviously have totally different strengths and weaknesses -- why isn't it as obvious that books and games are no different?



Trying to hide the numbers in a game, or trick the player into thinking something is complicated when it's not, seems really backwards; you want the model to be as transparent as possible so that the player can easily comprehend it, allowing them to form a mental model and use this to predict consequences, etc. in order to make choices and manipulate the simulation in meaningful ways.



Concerning the OT discussion of value systems: "value" is a measurement, and measurements are always relative to the metric used. Once you define a metric, you implicitly define the value of things **relative to that metric**, but not absolutely -- nothing has intrinsic value, only value relative to some system of measurement.

Jeff Beaudoin
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@raigan

That is a really good point that I think most people don't think about when it comes to examining games. Games shouldn't strive to be "as good as" books or movies. As you say, they do something entirely different.



I agree with everything in your post.

Jason King
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I agree with Tom.



To further the point, games such as chess - which are considered in a lot of ways the most advance microcosm of analytical thinking that a computer can do - is purely a mathematical response. To the player, however, chess is both a logic puzzle (i.e. what moves will end in checkmate) and a mathematical response (i.e. I'm willing to give up this piece because I value another piece more). In a way, we just have come up with the proper mathematical response that Adam is wanting for other forms of games.



Also, Adam writes, "What number would you attach to the enjoyment you gained from the last great book you read...?" To me that's a simple subconscious math equation - often it is how many pages did I come across where I didn't want to put the book down... which could be broken up into how many interesting concepts/connections/etc were described on those pages. Now you may say that the author wasn't thinking that way when they wrote the book (though many authors can and have outlined books to such a significant degree), but there are many books and many authors out there. And due to time constraints I (like most readers) generally read only those books written by authors that consistently write about interesting concepts/connections/etc that appeal to me. So the fact that I keep reading the same authors to a greater percentage that others is purely due to mathematical reasoning. And why I choose to read my next book is based on the amount of enjoyment I gained from reading the last book. If I were to ignore these values, I would end up reading a lot more disappointing books than interesting one in my lifetime. Alas, if I were simply to critique a book, I might give it 4 out of 5 stars.

Z Z
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I think it is a matter of perception on your part Adam. When I see a percent next to a narrative choice it doesn't effect me in a way where I think "oh math, how shallow". I read the choice, I know I had something to do with the percentage of that choice, and I gladly choose that choice if it is something that I want to say. If you take the percentage out of it, to me it stops being a role-playing game. There has to be a way for me to make a different choice than someone else playing the game for it to be a role playing game, and that right there is going to introduce math. There will be some statistic that will allow me to choose that choice over them. There may be certain paths through the game that I had to take to get that statistic to the right level for the situation I'm at now. So even a logical path has math in it, a +1 for each correct logical choice leading to a point where you will need say +10 to change outcomes from one game to another. It's a perception thing, that's all. Math doesn't introduce shallowness, a percentage next to a narrative choice doesn't introduce shallowness, statistics to represent ability don't introduce shallowness, to me.

Jamie Mann
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I think the issue here is one that it's very difficult for games to deal with - in essence, we're talking freedom of choice: a move from easily determined actions to a wide range of possibilities.



Generally, games tend to simplify things down to a simple boolean values (or a weighted die-roll) because the game engine isn't sophisticated enough, too many options would confuse the player or it would make it impossible to control the game's narrative. Each of these is very important - to take each in turn...



Game engines are getting more sophisticated and able to handle giving players extra freedom - the use of physics engines is making this a lot easier, as it facilitates environmental manipulation. However, this also causes further problems: if a player can do virtually anything, it's entirely possible for them to miss key game elements which will cause problems later on.



Confusing the player is also a potential issue. Look at Chess: it's a popular game, but requires care and reflection due to the sheer complexity which emerge from it's relatively simple rules: long-term strategy is just as key as short-term tactics. Popular turn-based games (e.g. Advance Wars) tend towards reducing the need for continuity by increasing the size of the maps and reducing the abilities of the units.



Finally, introducing more choice makes it easier for players to find ways to break the game. For instance, I could decide that I like the shiny thing I just found and keep it, rather than giving it to a NPC - or instead of questing for a key to unlock a door (and gaining several key game experiences along the way), I could just use a shotgun to blow the hinges off.



The post also posits the use of logical puzzles: these only work when the logic is clear to everyone. Not everyone likes puzzle-solving - Resident Evil and Silent Hill are two franchises where the "logical" puzzles became increasingly illogical as the series progressed. QTE is another mechanism used to by several games (such as Indigo Prime), but these have gained a bad reputation in a surprisingly short amount of time.



The rules behind the gameplay can be abstracted away to provide the illusion of freedom (e.g. by setting a simple objective and letting the user decide on the best approach - see Deus Ex and GTA3), but it adds several extra layers of complexity for both the developer and the player - and all too often, this is neither desirable nor enjoyable.

Tynan Sylvester
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Allow me to bloviate a bit. Even, perhaps, get a little philosophical. This is something I've been considering recently.



I think you're touching on something deeper than the overuse of math in games. The real issue you've highlighted is the difference between our mental models of the universe and the universe itself.



The reason games expose this is because they are our mental models made literal - and they reveal all the problems with those models in a very stark way.



What is the fundamental difference between games and life? Whereas life is bigger, more complex, more nuanced and varied than your brain can ever conceive of, every game is smaller than your mind. That's why everything in games has to be boiled down to a thin shadow-version of its real-life analog. This usually means breaking psychotically complex, nuanced concepts down into a set of simple linear numerical measurements. Hence the overuse of math.



Ever hear the phrase, "the map is not the territory"? This is the same thing, except the map is a game, and the territory is life.



I don't see any way to ever get around this. No matter how sophisticated games get in modeling life, life will always be bigger and deeper and more profound. One more reason to get outside and live it.

Mark Harris
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"And the results of those decisions should affect the narrative, rather than the player's attributes. "



That's the key to Adam's argument, and I think he has a valid point. All philosophy aside, we tend to make a lot of narrative choices for our characters based on in-game statistics rather than the abstracted math of comparative analysis we use to make moral decisions in our own brains.



I loved Mass Effect, but I did resent a bit the fact that I really couldn't choose from moment to moment how my character would react to a situation. The power of the dialogue system only opens up if you concentrate heavily on the Paragon or Renegade options; there is no room for neutrality. My character necessarily has to be a goody-goody or a total scumbag with nothing in between, unless I want to sacrifice the powerful dialogue options and shop rewards associated with a high level of P or R.



Adam is arguing for having narrative consequences for our actions instead of enhancing a player statistic. So if we decide to do a side quest to free a child captured by orc slavers we'll later see that child playing in front of his parents' home in town, hugging his mother, offering to shine the player's shoes for a coin or two. If we decide not to save him we see his mother weeping in the street or hanging around despondently on the front stoop, we see her trudging to an empty grave with wilted flowers, or even hear that she has hanged herself in her despair.



The narrative options have a better chance of evoking pride or guilt, and put us in a world of cause and effect, instead of just pushing our character's balance sheet up and down.

Adam Bishop
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That's a great way of describing it, Mark. That's a big part of what I was getting at.

raigan burns
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But implicit in that argument is the assumption that expressing a narrative or evoking emotions is -- or should be -- the goal of games!



As per my previous comment on architecture, games are not a perfect fit for narrative exposition, while on the other hand they excel at modeling virtual systems. Why not focus on that capability -- which is unique among media -- rather than trying to awkwardly shoehorn in narrative?



Just because our culture has been conditioned to consume predominantly narrative works doesn't make that form inherently superior, simply more easily approachable and digestible.. and not necessarily more worthwhile.



There are vast amounts of terrifically inspiring non-narrative works, in music, sculpture, dance, architecture, etc. -- even film! -- it just seems beyond ridiculous that so much money, time, and effort is spent making games that conform to a totally lame and stunted "the player is the hero in this linear narrative experience" model, just because its easy to market and consume.



Why not leave narrative for movies and books, and get on with making games-qua-games? Like Pac-Man, Lode Runner, Tetris, Super Mario Bros.. interactive systems which are unique and appealing to experience.

Mark Harris
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Raigan, it's because of the wealth of possibilities for video games. There is plenty of room in the industry for the Pac-Mans and Marios as well as the interactive narratives. For our part, we're trying to find ways to possibly improve on the interactive narrative, not ruin the pure fun of Mario Kart. Some of us are storytellers, and believe that the medium of video games is a unique environment in which to tell those stories. While there are wonderful non-narrative works in other media, there is room for the narrative. Ballet, opera, stage plays, these all incorporate narrative using music and dance and even static art and exist to tell a story and/or evoke emotion in their own unique way. Why not video games?



It's just as ridiculous to put up artificial boundaries and say that games can't, or shouldn't have narrative value. Besides, I just spent good money on a bunch of brand new shoehorns, and I'll be damned if they just sit in a corner gathering dust. :p

Adam Bishop
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Raigan, if movies, books, and music - all of which are incredibly different ways of communicating - are all nonetheless capable of communicating a wide variety of emotions to us, I really don't see why games can't as well. If you want a great example of that, you don't need to look any further than the game Passage and the responses that people had to that. Or Braid, perhaps, for a more high profile example. It's something I've been trying to figure out how to do myself. If you have an Xbox 360, you might want to check out my game "Time Flows, But Does Not Return" on the Community Games channel to see how I've dealt with some of these issues myself.

raigan burns
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The reason "why not" is because all those other forms can't do the things that games can do, so why not leave them to deal in narrative and concentrate on the unique aspects of games.



I'm sure that "narrative architecture" is possible, but the question is why would anyone bother when (a) there are more effective ways of communicating a narrative experience, and (b) expressing narrative via architecture would require compromising the "architectural" aspects to the constraints imposed by the narrative? What would the point be, other than as a technical challenge? Why not focus on the fundamental principals of the medium -- form, mass, composition, whatever -- and not bother adding in completely extraneous concerns?



In the case of games, the only reason I can see is that it makes the final product much more palatable and familiar to consumers.



Yes you can make narrative games, but isn't that sort of missing the point of games themselves? If you want to create a narrative experience, there are far better ways than through a game. Whereas if you want to create beautiful interactive rule systems, games are basically it; adding a narrative to games requires sacrificing the primacy of modeling and subsuming it to the structure demanded by the narrative, which should be reason enough to avoid narrative in games.



Braid is indeed wonderful simply because it puts the game first and lets it be a game without having the narrative walk all over it. Ultimately the prose is irrelevant to the fundamental experience of the game itself, i.e interacting with the rules which define the game world, you could fully experience the game without ever reading any text, and you could fully experience the text without ever playing the game, it seems like the two elements would be better served by separating them rather than trying to cram them awkwardly together.

Mark Harris
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And yet all of those other media have their own unique features, and each has incorporated narrative. The only media that is procedurally designed ONLY for narrative is the written (and spoken?) word. All other media incorporate narrative as a way to share experiences. Is it wrong if music doesn't have narrative? No. Is it wrong if music is used to present narrative? No. You can brow beat us with your "focus on the unique qualities of games" argument all you want, but history has shown that all media can be used for narrative purposes, and to great effect. Are you going to tell Hitchcock that his films are awkward and meaningless because they don't focus purely on what makes film unique, and instead incorporate a narrative sequence?



If you are dead set on making games that are just a set of mechanics in a virtual rule set, then you are free to do so. Those of us who want to incorporate narrative should be free to do the same. I think both approaches are valid, and both are palatable to consumers. There is a reason that both Mario Galaxy and Fallout 3 sell tons of copies.

raigan burns
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Agreed.

Reid Kimball
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@raigan:

Going by your assertion that games should stick to only using their foundational elements, such as mechanics to be like Tetris or Pac-man, then you should also apply that to films. Get rid of the narrative and focus on pans, shots, transitions of anything that fits the lens, like a family vacation!



For a book, choose words that string together to form a sentence, with no care for what it actually means. Bravo! Well done.



All forms of art mediums such as dance, poetry, novels, film, paintings are a communication medium to express ideas and feelings of the artist so they can be transmitted and infect the viewer/participant. To put it simply, those who want to use games for narrative purposes want to find a way to use games to communicate ideas and feelings of the artist, so that they can infect the player intellectually or emotionally.

raigan burns
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I've definitely been somewhat over-zealous, but I still have to disagree one last time.



As someone pointed out, language (including written words) is the natural medium for narrative, so the "meaningless sentence" example is confused.



In terms of film, there is a vast body of non-narrative films ("art films") which demonstrate that film as a medium can do much more than simply be a vehicle for story telling. Here's one good example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serene_Velocity ..they're not family vacation movies.



The concept of the artist communicating their feelings or ideas to the audience, and the whole tone of the "games as art" discussion seems rooted in an antiquated pre-modern concept of art. There have been many movements concerned with much more than simply using a medium to communicate a narrative. In other fields, people have explored the fundamentals and developed various schools of thought and process: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_art#Art_movements_and_artist_groups



I'm pretty sure none of those schools of painting presumed that painting was intrinsically about the communication by the artist of a narrative to an audience. They were concerned with much more interesting things. Similarly, the fundamentals of games have nothing whatsoever to do with narrative, and so long as we keep assuming narrative is an unquestionable component of games, we'll avoid ever exploring what the fundamentals really are.



Once the foundational elements of games are understood, THEN we can figure out how to use them to support or construct a narrative. Rack focus, montage, etc were techniques adapted for use in a Hollywood format, but they were first used experimentally in a "pure film" context.

Ulrich Haar
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Some very nice comments, I have to say.

From what I understand the problem is not really math or not math, but rather the rationality predominant in decision making. Rationality here meaning: inference based decicion making using a developing game world model with the unique goal of maximizing utility.



Personally I found that choices (rational or not) in games become interesting once I believe the game world model to intersect my own world model (maybe a systemic rather than narrative suspension of disbelief).

E.g. when during the dating conversation in Indigo Prophecy I feel that I use inference into my personal dating experience to guide my answers rather than perceived patterns of underlying systems)

Then there is obviously the field of personal expression or exploration (e.g. choosing your character's hairstyle), which can be interesting for some time but which I tend to find too arbitrary without any influence into the game systems.

More interesting choices involve a conflict between the values of the underlying systems and my own values or aesthetics. For example when it is clearly superior to change my ship in Privateer, but I just stick around a little longer with the good old ship, because we already have such a rich history together. Feeling the inner conflict grow with each mission until I finally give up, say goodbye and sell the old lady.

Honestly, anyone claiming that nowadays roleplaying games with character customization do not involve emotional decisions just doesn't have any style :-P.



Following this all-encompassing analysis, the "one and only" recipe to create engaging choices is:

Create a system that suspends the player's systemic disbelief and instead of making him search for patterns in the virtual world model, makes him use, verify, question and discard patterns or aesthetics of his real world view.

My current ideologically influenced view on how to achieve that would be to do intensive research on a topic and then expose the player gradually to the rules of this topic. This can be a traditional topic like "war" or something different like "making friends".

And all this can only profit from some form of narrative, because people are about people and the stupid things people do, but if I just had to tell a story I would think twice before I would want to do that with a video game. All these technical constraints, all the specialist knowledge required, teams of technocrats that do not understand the vision and last but for sure not least all the work. You could just sit at the beach for a few evenings with some paper and a pencil writing a short story. I guess there is more than just a story to tell...


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