GAME JOBS
Latest Jobs
spacer View All     Post a Job     RSS spacer
 
June 7, 2013
 
YAGER Development
Senior Game Systems Designer (f/m)
 
RealTime Immersive, Inc.
Animation Software Engineer
 
Havok
Havok- 3D Software Engineers (Relocate to Europe)
 
Social Point
Senior Game Developer
 
Treyarch / Activision
Senior Environment Artist
 
Sony Computer Entertainment America - Santa Monica
Senior Staff Programmer
spacer
Blogs

  The Interrogator Problem
by Adam Bishop on 12/12/09 07:56:00 pm   Featured Blogs
12 comments Share on Twitter Share on Facebook RSS
 
 
The following blog was, unless otherwise noted, independently written by a member of Gamasutra's game development community. The thoughts and opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of Gamasutra or its parent company.

Want to write your own blog post on Gamasutra? It's easy! Click here to get started. Your post could be featured on Gamasutra's home page, right alongside our award-winning articles and news stories.
 

Dialogue trees are a vital part of many role-playing games, and similar styles of dialogue are used in other games as well, especially adventure games.  The primary idea behind dialogue trees is that the player should be allowed to decide who the main character is, rather than the designer.  However, there is one major problem that this approach often ends up creating - the resulting characters have no character.

What Is The Problem, Exactly?
The crux of the problem is this - when creating a game like Fallout 3 or Dragon Age: Origins, the idea is that the game should not define the main character for the player, since the main character is for all intents and purposes supposed to be the player, and the player knows better than the designer how they want to respond.  However, because of this, the main character is almost never given anything to say; instead, the character is only allowed to ask questions.

This means a couple of unfortunate things.  The first is that the player is never actually the driving force of the conversation (and, as a result, never the driving force of the story).  While it is true that the player is often allowed to choose how the story plays out, they are only able to do so within the boundaries set by NPCs.  It is always the player who responds to the NPC, and never the NPC who responds to the player.  The story is never about what the player's character wants, it is always about what NPCs want out of the main character.

Because players are not allowed to be the driving force behind in-game conversations, dialogues virtually always take the form of question and answer sessions.  The NPC has information the player wants, the player knows (or believes very strongly) that the NPC has this information, so the dialogue becomes primarily about how the player can extract the information they want from the NPC.  The player simply asks the NPC questions in order to discover information that will help them solve a problem.  That is why I have called this The Interrogator Problem, because the player essentially plays their character as an interrogator.

Perhaps the most unfortunate result of this dialogue structure is that the main character winds up with virtually no personality. This makes for some very uninteresting story-telling.  One of the most basic rules of story-telling is that everyone must have motivation, or more simply that every character must want something.  More complex and important characters generally want many, sometimes conflicting, things.  However, player characters are only allowed to want one thing, which is information that will bring them closer to the game-appointed end point.  But this isn't really the motivation of the character, so much as it is the motivation of the game.

What does the player character believe?  What do they value?  What do they think about?  What do they want from the world?  From other people?  From themself?  The lazy answer is "whatever the player decides", from which we get my most hated video game trope: the silent protaganist.  But the real, honest answer to all of those questions is nothing.

Why Does The Problem Exist?
Like many of the problems we have to deal with in game creation, two of the biggest hurdles are technology and time.  It seems like it would take a huge effort to create the breadth of content that would allow players to actually direct the story, rather than merely responding to it.  Particularly in a game in which there was voice acting, this would seem to be a huge barrier to overcome.

Another important reason that the problem exists is that games are almost always organised into quests.  And quests, it would seem, must follow a particular structure - someone has a problem, the player would like a reward, and so the player solves that problem to obtain said reward.  But perhaps it does not need to be that way.

How Do We Let Players Make Better Characters?
The most important answer to this question is actually contrary to the question, and that is to take some control away from players.  We can allow players to choose the direction that a conversation will take, but we can also write dialogue that we think is fitting for that direction.  If the player chooses to say "No, I could never kill an innocent", then instead of having an NPC immediately respond to that brief remark, the player character could then provide an explanation of why they would never kill an innocent. 

Yes, it's entirely possible that the player will say "Hey, that's not actually why I could never kill an innocent!"  But isn't it better for the game to have the character say something that's at least interesting than to say nothing at all?  And perhaps just as importantly, players may also be quite pleased to see that their character is actually a part of the world rather than simply a witness to it.

Another way to do this is to simply expand the way in which we think of dialogue trees.  Normally dialogue trees are set up to fit a morality system or a skill system (thieves trick NPCs with cunning, warriors intimidate NPCs with strength, wizards use logic to convince NPCs with intelligence, etc.)  But dialogue trees can also take the form of different opinions.  For example, what if instead of good/bad/neutral morality, we let players choose left/centre/right politics? It makes perfect sense for a character to give a detailed and personal explanation of their political standpoint. 

There are plenty of other ways dialogues could be set up: upper/middle/lower class, atheist/agnostic/devout religious views, humanistic/scientific/religious world views, etc.  There are many ways to provide players interesting options while still providing a way for their characters to have more to say than simple one line questions/answers.

Another step that we could take is actually very simple - turn the NPC into the interrogator and the player into the one with the answers.  Dragon Age does this to some extent, where other characters in your party will ask you how you feel about something, and then ask you to explain your answer.  I personally thought those portions of the game were among the more interesting dialogues to play through. 

However, those dialogues were almost always brief one-offs that had little do with the game on the whole.  It is a great way for the player to feel as though their character is larger than just the main plot, and so in that respect those dialogues are exactly the kind of thing I think we need more of.  But it would also be great if those sorts of dialogues would occur during the main storyline as well.

For example, in one part of Dragon Age (minor spoiler alert)(edit: originally typed Dragon Quest, for some reason) the player is tasked with choosing which of two warring dwarven nobles will become the next king.  The player does this by completing a quest line for one or the other.  At the end, the national assembly asks the player to crown a king.  What if instead, the potential leaders all had distinct political views, and the player was asked not directly to choose a victor, but to give a speech to the assembly in which they had to choose a set of political views to support.  If the assembly was sufficiently swayed, then instead of asking the player to choose a king, the assembly would select the leader who they thought best embodied the opinions that the player character had elucidated.  In this way the player is allowed to play an important role in the story not just by making a selection, but by having their character actually represent that selection in a tangible way within the game world.

The most important thing to do is to allow player characters to say things which are more than brief questions targetted at NPCs.  That way players will feel as though they are driving the story, and not just witnessing it.  So that's The Interrogator Problem, and those are some of the most promising ways I can think of to fix it. 

 
 
Comments

Luis Guimaraes
profile image
Maybe more than dialogues, let the player tell what the character thinks, give him opinions (character development) rather than just-in-time responses (aka, path choices).

David Wipperfurth
profile image
At least once I've seen the interrogator element turned into a mini-game; In Final Fantasy 7, probably in other FFs as well, but I'm going to go with the classic. Certain conversations result in rewards depending on how well the player maneuvered the conversation. I would say in situations where you can view the interrogator as a valid game mechanic instead of just a simple plot device, then it's quite valid to use. As you have described it, "the dialogue becomes primarily about how the player can extract the information they want from the NPC." that is a goal to be achieved, if the goal can be failed, and there is a reword for success, something even as minor as acknowledgment of success, it becomes a valid game mechanic.



I would venture to say that in most games this element is not fail-able, so any reward is literally taken for granted by the user, which is when your argument because perfectly valid. As a plot development tool, it is clearly over used, and what you were saying about nothing characters is right on the money IMO.



I also like that you pointed out how over-done the alignment question spread is. It's true that is does allow for players to play-out their two favorite types of characters, the good theatrical good version of them self, and the theatrical bad version of them self. --But, it has just been done too too much.



As to the solution "provide an explanation of why", I think that could definitely help as a plot device, although I worry it might be a bit hollow if the answer has no impact on the game. I like your political example from Dragon Quest better. Maybe you could find a way to make that into a general purpose tool? As is it's a bit scenario specific, but a s a general rule of thumb it could work well.



Also, I actually really like Luis Guimarães' suggestion, and the more I think about it the more I like it. Assuming when you define your characters personality you aren't choosing from a short list of character types, but a combination of character aspects, which would increase the variability of responses at each encounter. I think it clearly solves the issue of nothing characters in a meaningful way. If the character is qued-into the fact that the avatar's responses are a result of the players personality programming, then the player is still getting a reward for the encounter. The only downside is it's removing the players interaction in conversation. This is a down-side since the conversations are often slow parts of the game for many gamers, and the interaction model has been seen as a way to liven it up a bit. Although for me, when conversations get too slow in games, I just try to skip through them, so the interaction model just gets in my way, so maybe it isn't too much of a downside at all.



One other slight plot mechanic I've seen, which doesn't solve the problem, but at least addresses it is when the players choices aren't the actual words the avatar uses. Some games have the player simply choose an opinion and the actual response of the avatar is then a surprise to the user. Since the actual response is tailored to the the general personality tones of the avatar, say 'the heart broken loner', when the player hears the actual response for the first time it feels more organic to the avatar's personality without forcing an opinion on the player.

Steve Mallory
profile image
This seems to be a bit of a misguided, if well-intentioned, criticism of game dialog and story, and raises - in my opinion - more questions about the validity of its discussion than any proposed answer.



How do you propose creating a powerful enough text parsing system to infer responses from both NPCs and PCs alike?



How do we, as developers, create a powerful enough text entry system to not only allow players to write their own dialog, but also parse misspellings, incorrect words, incomplete sentences, etc?



This sounds like a lot of kvetching without any real answer to some serious content and technology-based questions.

Adam Bishop
profile image
I think you've misunderstood me, Steve. I'm not suggesting that players be allowed to enter text of any sort. What I am suggesting is that we keep the same kind of structure (i.e. multiple choice dialogue trees) but to structure the dialogues themselves differently.



Also, the post originally said Dragon Quest when it was meant to say Dragon Age. I've fixed the error.

Louis Varilias
profile image
It depends a lot on the game. The structure you discuss is good for an open ended RPG such as Fallout 3 or Oblivion. In most other games, I do not think the player ought to have any control of what the character will become, such as any Zelda game. The player helps Link realize *Link's* dreams and ideals.



I think ideally you want a player to play a *character*, not an extension of themselves. The ideal would make a player feel like an actor. I think acting theory would have a lot of answers of what to do. Theory by people like Stanislavski (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislavski%27s_system)



I've discussed this sort of idea before in this post: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/LouisVarilias/20090821/2809/Meta_Value_Systems_In
_Games.php

Christopher Wragg
profile image
To be honest one of the simplest ways to make the player appear to be the driving force would be to simply have an NPC turn around when spoken to and say nothing and give the first line of dialog to the player. This first line could then define the way the rest of the conversation pans out. Also your right, it would be great if more often when your character asserts something, the NPCs question it. None of this, no we must save the holy grail, and the rest of the party acquiesces. Instead we'd have party members go, well no lets not, we have no reason to, and from that point the player needs to justify their stance, this could be anything from, 'I want to and your my friend so your coming along" to "It's the right thing to do". DA:O does this to some degree, but there are some moments when a party member says something snide( I'm looking at you Morrigan) and it'd be nice to be able to respond in some meaningful way.



Another suggestion (and it's a bit cumbersome) is something along the lines of a friends list for NPCs. In this way the player could place NPCs they've just met into a "friends with"/"agree with" sort of list. This list is mutable for a time but after interacting with those characters in certain ways it would sort of lock them into a position. The more interactions, the better a personality has effectively been defined, and from this the game could evolve certain interactions. So for instance if your character has been agreeing with all the religious types throughout the game, then perhaps greater(or at least different) options appear during conversations with newly met religious types.



My reasoning for the above system is that in many RPGs players start off strongly defining their character, but as the game progresses these well defined personality traits (hate's humans, love religion etc) become quite muddles within the quests and goals they're trying to accomplish. A good example of this is in DA:O when *minor spoiler* trying to get Sten released. Upon talking to the revered mother, you have an option to threaten her. Now even if you are religious, but have no ranks in coercion, or haven't gotten Leliana yet, there is no other alternative. It would be nice if the game analysed the fact that your character thus far would NOT threaten the religious leader and didn't even throw up that option for your character, instead perhaps a religion based conversation could take place.

Steve Mallory
profile image
Ah, then let me revise, because based on your initial text, I inferred that you were - as you put it - discussing a far more reaching technical issue rather than explicitly stating you are discussing restructuring the dialog trees :)



Characters having no Character

I am quite fond of the Silent Protagonist, in fact, I prefer to play as one over a strong "character" for this reason: I don't like being told what I am supposed to think unless it is blindingly obvious. Or, put another way, game writing tends to be so bad that I would rather meta my own dialog and thoughts than listen to the inane babble that a fellow designer has foisted onto me.



If one needs an example, look no further than "Army of Two"...yeesh.



Restructuring Our Discussions

You are discussing a limitation, again, without easy answers. To quote an old co-worker, Steve Gaynor, Players are Agents of Chaos, we don't know WHAT they are going to do. The reason why we (as developers) place the player in the role of "interrogator" is so that they are the driving force in the discussion, determining where it occurs based on the questions we provide. The system responds to them, and they drive whether or not dialog even occurs.



So, in looking at your "I will never kill an Innocent" remark that the player can optionally make and then having the player justify/explain his response - long or short - is essentially wasting the players time. The player should already know this. If the player doesn't, then the reason is a forced one. Without some cause, it is a forced connection with the player, and that - IMO - is worse than the NPC responding without further discourse. Player Characters wont forge connections with NPCs we tell them to forge connections with; game story does not do "In Media Res". If the player has no connection with a NPC prior to his introduction, then there is no chance for an emotional bond to occur. Using 'Dragon Age' as an example *spoliers - stop reading now!* the Dalish Elf origin story is, by far, the weakest of the intros simply because it infers a certain level of hostility in the player character toward humans, as well as a certain level of friendship with an NPC with which you've had maybe 5-10 minutes of screen time with. They are trying to build a certain camaraderie or even romantic relationship, depending on gender, but it fails entirely because this lifelong relationship has, in the player's terms, lasted less than 15 minutes. By comparison, the Human Noble origin is one of the stronger ones. Why? It lets you explore and interact with the castle and your family long before the story starts. You talk to your parents, your siblings and their family - you can interact with them, and if you do, you can begin to form the bonds that are hinted at by the context of the dialog. That said, that is still not the strongest possible bond between characters in a game - if you want that, you need to slip into your hazard suit and boot up Half Life 2. The relationship between Alyx and Gordon, even if it is "one sided", creates an incredibly strong emotional bond because your relationship with her, as a player, begins the same moment that it begins for Gordon. You experience everything with her, learn about her and her love of her father. It is very tender, genuine, and real, and you - as the player - don't interact with it at all.

Adam Bishop
profile image
Hmm. I think we're still talking about different things. Perhaps I haven't been too clear, so let me expand on one of my examples.



In an RPG, you'll often have a piece of a conversation that will go something like this:



NPC: If you kill Richard for me, I will give you 200 gold coins.

PC: (Option 1) 200 gold coins? I'd kill anyone for that much money.

(Option 2) Make it 300 and you have a deal.

(Option 3) I'm sorry, but I could never kill an innocent man.

(Option 4) I won't do it, and I think I'll kill you for even asking!



Now, let's say the player chooses option 3. In most RPGs, that will be all that the player character says. The NPC will immediately take over the conversation, possibly to give some lengthy exposition on why Richard really does need to die after all. In this situation, I don't want the player to be asked to choose an explanation for their decision from another list of dialogue options. What I want is for the character, without any input from the player, to provide some additional dialogue beyond what the player has specifically selected. So the dialogue would go something like this:



NPC: If you kill Richard for me, I will give you 200 gold coins.

(Player selects option 3)

PC: I'm sorry, but I could never kill an innocent man. And to be honest, I've had it with you mercenary thugs and your disdain for the value of human life. Have you no compassion? No sense of decency? There are more important things in this world than money, and one day you will come to understand why it must be so. I only pray that no more innocent people have to die before that day arrives.



OK, so that's obviously not the greatest dialogue ever written, but the point is that I'd like to see player characters actually take control of the conversation in that manner rather than letting the NPC do all the talking. That's what I mean when I say that player characters should have motivations other than just finishing the quest.

Ron Newcomb
profile image
Re: the original post: forgive me for being ignorant of the latest videogames, but do they not do this already? Also, the examples I see just above this post show the PC answering a question, "would you assassinate Richard for me?", not asking one.



And if the NPC responds to #3 with further reasons that Richard must die, then I think allowing the player a dialogue response to give further reasons against is both perfectly valid and more in line with interactive story than simply walking away from the NPC's counterpoint.



Mind, I don't disagree with the overarching intent of your original post. PC dialogue is certainly constrained, sometimes to the ASK ABOUT X methods, and sometimes to the DIS/AGREE TO EXTENT X methods. Some games also feature TELL ABOUT X or GIVE/SHOW X, and they come across as a lock-and-key painted as NPC-and-McGuffin. In other words, a lack of player expression is the problem.



Even given the change in dialogue trees you postulate, there's still something "game-y" and non-immersive about picking lines from a menu. It shows too much of how the software works, and by extension, how the NPCs work.



BTW, re: "it's entirely possible that the player will say 'Hey, that's not actually why I could never [X]"



Emily Short postulated the term "agency gap" to refer to such disconnects between what the player intended and how the PC actually responded. Occasionally, the response that the player didn't intend sets the tone for the relationship with the NPC, and may even have story consequences -- consequences the player won't buy into. The game's whole story becomes theoretical to him from that point on. ("Theoretically, if I *had* felt that way, then...")

Steve Mallory
profile image
1) The response is far too long (and this coming from a designer who loves backstory). Player's simply don't READ that much text. It's a sad commentary, but it's true. Trim it down, and let it go back and forth. Longwinded monologues have their place, but games, IMO, aren't one of them.



2) The response contains plenty of flavor that describes the character, sure, but, could they not have experienced that as a part of story previously. The response implies a greater emotional response, but unless that response is grounded in the gameplay and narrative up until that point, it is forced and unlikely to have the emotional response that you are expecting.

Luis Guimaraes
profile image
Many players also look at the game as a game, and a software.



NPC: If you kill Richard for me, I will give you 200 gold coins.

PC:



QuickSave

(Option 1) 200 gold coins? I'd kill anyone for that much money. ($200, but maybe I get in trouble, maybe I get into some more story)

(Option 2) Make it 300 and you have a deal. (maybe I get $300, maybe not)

(Option 3) I'm sorry, but I could never kill an innocent man. (maybe there's something better than $300)

(Option 3) I won't do it, and I think I'll kill you for even asking! (maybe I die, maybe I open a new part of the story)

Matthew Woodward
profile image
I'd argue that the root issue here is a confluence of the use of a "blank protagonist" (or however you want to term it) and finite resources. If you're not placing any significant constraints on the protagonist's character (as in Dragon Age or Fallout 3), it's exceptionally unlikely that you're going to have the resources to offer up dialogue choices that cover all possible characters accurately in any great detail.



In this sort of scenario I think the path generally chosen is probably the best one: try and cover the basic options and let the player flesh the rest out in their head if they want to. I also feel fairly strongly that (unless you're going completely down the Mass Effect-style route where the player really is a director rather than a participant) putting words into the player's mouth is a far greater crime than leaving their character under-expressed. If the player's conception of their character doesn't match up faithfully with the character you're imposing on them with this method (which is likely), all you're achieving is to drive a wedge between the player and their character.



While I'd like to think that there are better solutions than dialogue trees for many cases, they can still be used effectively for character development under the right circumstances. In particular, when you limit (or explicitly define) the character's initial state, dialogue trees can be used to really embellish and explore the player's take on their character. This can be seen to a fair degree in Planescape: Torment, but the best recent example for me is The Witcher (a game which far too few people have played, it seems). By initially telling the player "look, you're this Witcher called Geralt, oh, and you have amnesia lol", and thereby restricting the range of character choices the player can make, the dialogue options in the game can be a lot more specific and meaningful. As a result, the game does (IMO) a pretty good job of exploring various issues specific to Witchers and their interaction with the world, and drew me into the character I developed far more than other, more generalist games succeed in doing.


none
 
Comment:
 




 
UBM Tech