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Blogs

  Thoughts on Baldur's Gate 3 (I WANT 2D BACK!)
by Dolgion Chuluunbaatar on 01/29/10 03:01:00 pm   Featured Blogs
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The following blog was, unless otherwise noted, independently written by a member of Gamasutra's game development community. The thoughts and opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of Gamasutra or its parent company.

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Yesterday I took some free time off so that I could finally try Dragon Age: Origins.

My first impression was that this game is seriously "inspired" by WoW. Not a bad thing, not in a bad way.

Mostly they just copied the interface, and they did well. The first time I tried WoW, I actually thought "somebody really ought to make a deep single player RPG with this interface". Well Dragon Age seems on first sight to be that. I haven't played for too long, in fact I finished the prologue (or "Origin") of an elf and then of a human mage. With my mage I continued onward up to the first boss and no further than that. So...what do I think of the game?

It's certainly very accessible, what with all the WoW-ish features and I was really compelled to continue EVEN though I have seriously low-end hardware (P4 3.0 Ghz, 2.5 GB RAM and an ATI X1550) that juust lets you play on a bleeding edge fluent frame rate with lowest details. That says a lot about a game when I don't give a damn and still play on.

Well I have some things that I got thinking about. Bioware states that this game is the spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate 2. Hmmm....I don't think so. And most people who actually played BG2 would disagree with that statement as well I'd say. The game feels much more of a great single-player RPG in the spirit of the LotR movies.

Seriously, that game is sooooo LotR-movie-esque, more than the Warcraft universe or D&D or even than some actual licensed LotR games. Darkspawn seem pretty much like your standard Mordor orcs, and the dark-but-not-sooo-dark-and-pretty-raw feel of the graphics and lighting and character models is just in the style of the LotR movies.

I think the developers knew that and probably purposely made an effort to capture that look and feel. Which I find really cool, don't misunderstand me. And then they shaped the world and its internal rules to be more original (like mages being seen as notoriously dangerous and being hunted by templars, or elves being a dying race etc).

I liked the game from what I saw till now, but it doesn't live up to "spiritual successor of BG2" expectations. That's clearly just a marketing statement, and Bioware effectively used it. I think they must be scared of actually making a BG3 because of the impossibly high expectations that would generate (apparently BG3 is going to be made though!).

This post is not a review of Dragon Age, more like a fluent thought process. Playing DA:O made me think about BG2 and why DA:O doesn't live up to BG2. I've also been surfing round various forums and people have differing opinions. Some say BG2 is over-hyped and because of it's cult-status notorious fans would never be satisfied with anything Bioware can come up with. Some of the die-hard fans ridicule DA:O in every aspect in comparison to BG2. Some say DA:O is the best Bioware has ever made and even say it's a deeper game than BG2.

But hey! Bioware can come up with a "real" Baldur's Gate 3. They'd just have to do what they always do when making sequels. More of the same but better and bigger!

Yesterday I fired up BG1 and 2 and am now playing the BGTrilogy mod for the first time. And here are some thoughts on what characterised Baldur's Gate anyway and how to perceive a true successor from that.

For one thing, the story of the bhaalspawn has come to a conclusion. Which isn't bad, they can make something up that's equally cool with a new character. Well then, let's get to the things that are essential for a BG3.

BG1 and 2 (which I'll just call BG now) combined is a huge game. H-U-G-E. F*CKING HUGE!

One time, I've played with a do-gooder paladin and spent like a month just in chapter 2 (to be fair, chapter 2 is the most large one of all :P). The (side-)quests are waaay better than anything I've played in KotoR, Jade Empire, or Morrowind/Oblivion. BG-quests are rolemodel quests. When you go to the Umar Hills and spend like a whole day uncovering the mystery of the Temple of Light, it feels like a well-made main story line of a smaller RPG, or a short adventure novel. But this is just a piece of BG. All quests are at least good. They have interesting characters, good writing (this works out for the characters though) and let you have a say in the important moments as to how to continue the plot. Since BG licenses the AD&D universe and rule system, you get to see and go to many interesting places and races with their own detailed lore. You always feel like you're just a little guy (or girl) in a huge world and even though you're the Bhaalspawn, you're not much of a big impact in the real big scheme of things.

So the quests are one thing. Another thing are of course the interesting party members and their occasional feedback or quarrel with you or other members. This has been improved on well by later Bioware RPGs.

Another thing is the fights. I'm not sure if I like the AD&D system. I don't play pen and paper RPGs (I would though, if I met cool people to play with) and I find many things rather confusing, such as armor classes, and especially just exactly how most of the spells effect the targets, because let's admit it, the descriptions are way complicated for average non-extreme-geeks like me and below. I use most spells just by trying and remembering roughly how the spell worked out in action (that's the reason why I suck at combat in BG :D). And that's why I'm glad that BG rewards questing more than killing monsters. The combat system in DA:O is more accessible and I'd prefer it I think, but combat in DA:O was pretty boring up to the point I played because a) there was a lack of variety of monsters and b) a lack of demand for actual strategy. The only fight where I had to stop and prepare and think about was with the troll. And even then my strategy wasn't satisfyingly interesting. BG has more challenging and strategic combat for sure. (BTW the top down camera in DA:O isn't really that good)

So a BG3 that I'd like to play would be: huge, at least as big as BG1 (a relaunch of BG with a different story would probably end up like DA, layed out as a series).

Its quests should be numerous without feeling generic, and have interesting/intriguing plots and are allowed to be quite lengthy.

The party members ought to be numerous too (both the available ones and the party size) and have believable and entertaining interactions.

The main story line should be very personal and original, I don't want boring "save the world! you are the chosen one" bullshit anymore. I liked how in BG NPCs would seek you out and give you quests, or try to assassinate you.

The game can surely be linear in some chapters to drive the main plot forward, but should always have parts where you can just go to any areas you like and do tons and tons of  side quests at your own pace, knowing and trusting that each quest is worth the effort because of the experience (the actual experience, not just the points), which I think the recent Bioware RPGs seriously failed at (haven't tried NWN2 though). I just love the feel of browsing through my journal and working quests like a todo list. Slay a dragon there, gain a stronghold there, you know? Monumental quests. The feeling of achievement is enormous, and the loot and experience are not the main motivation but the feeling of having freaking slaughtered a freaking dragon, man! (and now wearing his hides as underwear :D)

So there. I don't believe Bioware is going to deliver though. It's not that I'm a pessimist or jaded. It's just that game companies put their money and effort on the wrong things in my opinion. We don't need more awesome shader graphics. We don't need uber-realistic physics so that our victims fly physically correctly down the stairs. That's just rings and bells and doesn't make the meat of a BG game. Sure, those things are important when your game is about delivering an authentic warzone experience. But a BG game must feature and improve on the core characteristics I described above.

So here some suggestions.

F*ck 3D graphics altogether for such sophisticated RPGs. I never liked the hassle with cameras, even if DA:O does the best job of it up to now. I don't want to have to readjust even one time. And 3D graphics have their drawbacks. To make one NPC in an old-fashioned RPG, all you need is a sprite with some animations, a dialog tree, maybe a bit of voice recording and some basic AI routines. For a modern 3D RPG, suddenly you need to make a 3D model, with textures and animations and voice recording for every sentence, which often results in less dialogue. Suddenly you need facial expressions and that all eats a bunch of computing power too. Seriously, those things are really not thaaat great. I really liked the cinematic angles and stuff in DA:O in the beginning, but after 20 mins I didn't care about it anymore.

Let's take all this capacity and effort and make some real neat 2D graphics that serve their purpose and many real detailed fleshed out NPCs  that you'll remember after 10 years. Let's screw crazily detailed and shadered environments only to have like 20 or so noteworthy in the entire game and instead make hundreds of beautiful paintings that can easily convey a deep look and feel. Dungeons in BG felt way more ancient and creepy than the ones I've been running around in for example Oblivion (and this game has the most atmospheric dungeons of all 3D RPGs I played).

Let's take our time to really create a huge amount of interesting and believable enemies and monsters that make you feel unwell inside.

Let's design spells and combat moments that make you go crazy to find a working strategy for. No need for cinematic animations to make me feel scared of a boss enemy.

I guess technology has to advance and it surely will and that's a good thing. But developers are not required to use them just because they are available. Do what works for your game design game devs! Be consequent and brave.  I refuse to believe that people are that dumb and let themselves be blinded with graphics anymore. The whole 3D hype has got to end and developers have got to questions their designs more fundamentally.

Indie developers are showing us that 2D has not reached its limit and that it's not inherently inferior to 3D.

It all comes down to the game you're trying to make.

 
 
Comments

Tim Randall
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Good stuff; I agree less than 100% but opinions always vary... thank you for writing it.

Elliot Green
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I agree that 3D is overrated.



I am working on an RTS in my spare time. This RTS is being done in 2d.



Most 2d rts games are done isometrically as is Baldur's Gate. The game I am making is top down in the same way as in Bubble Tanks http://armorgames.com/play/1920/bubble-tanks-2. This allows units to seem as if they are shooting at units instead of deducing XP from another unit by pointing in its general direction.



Large maps, intricate gameplay, and a wide variety of units will be able to run on a modest computer.



Also, development can be done in a higher level language than c++(Java or even Python). Art will be easier to create.



Why candy coat something with mediocre gameplay when you can focus on making good gameplay quickly with more agile (codewise) languages. The good thing about modern computers is that they can run even slow but convenient languages quickly. It is a shame that gaming has not been able to take advantage of this trend. I blame 3D.



About python by its inventor.

http://www.python.org/doc/essays/ppt/acm-ws/sld024.htm

Zaid Crouch
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Horses for courses, I guess, but there are a few things here that I find myself disagreeing with. For one, this seems to be less of an argument for 2D over 3D than a general "older RPG design" versus "modern RPG design" argument (for example, 2D/3D character models and fully voiced dialogue are not at all directly connected).



I never actually played BG (I'm a console gamer more than a PC one), so I can't make any comments about comparing it to DA:O, but for me, Dragon Age was all about the characters. For everything else in the game, it was the characters, and their interactions that gave the game life. And I think that the voice acting, and 3D models (specifically character facial gestures) were a key part of that, and that it wouldn't be on the same level without them. (As an aside, one of my biggest annoyances was being unable to have subtitles outside of full-blown conversations -- which were really useful -- without also have subtitles in proper conversations -- which most of the time seriously detract from the impact of the conversations.)



In this regard, I think they picked the perfect technologies for the game they wanted to create.



On the other hand, I fully agree that there's still a lot of life left in 2D yet, and look forward to seeing what the future holds for it. I just think it would have absolutely killed Dragon Age.

Dolgion Chuluunbaatar
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@Zaid



Yeah my intent was not to argue that 2D is better than 3D. I just argue that a Baldur's Gate 3 would be more in the spirit/worthy of the name Baldur's Gate IF the game featured the characteristics I mentioned (many long or small quests with love for detail, interesting characters and a feel of "awe" for the game world itself). IF they can make the game like that AND use 3D without messing up the camera etc then I'm all up for it. But I doubt they have the capacities to do that, looking at the games Bioware has made since BG2 which I don't dislike, I just feel that they don't quite reach the complexity or scape of BG2.



One of the core reasons for that would be 3D I believe, and none of the characteristics of BG actually require 3D (except maybe as you said, with facial expressions and voice acting more life can be brought into them as in DA:O), so that's why my wish would be that they'd do it in 2D.



Btw as I recently read, Bioware doesn't have the rights for the BG franchise anymore, so...I don't know, there's even less hope for a 'true' successor.

Samuel Wissler
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Good article, though I don't quite agree with everything.



I never played BG so I don't have much of a basis for comparison I guess... though through friends I've heard a lot about it. Aside from how those two games compare, I had a few questions:



You said that combat in DA:O didn't require much strategy. Which character class/party composition you were using? The reason I ask is that my experience with the game was the complete opposite. I found that unless I constantly paused the game to maximize my positioning, fix target drops from the AI, and make sure my abilities were all on cooldown, nearly every fight would end in a quick death. Have you played past the origin section yet? I found the game really changed at that point.



I totally agree with the camera issue though - it was much better in NWN even.

Kevin Reese
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I love Bioware to death, but creativity is not exactly their strong point. I'm not trying to disparage their talented and skillful writing staff, but both their Mass Effect and Dragon Age IP's are a straight-forward hodgepodge of ideas taken from other works. And not even obscure works :) , instead, the most popular and well-known stuff. For Dragon Age, Lord of the Rings as you noted, and Mass Effect, takes mostly from Star Trek and Star Wars, and then bits and pieces from many science fiction films. There was nary an original idea in either two IPs.



As for your main contention, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Dragon Age is the descendant of Baldur's Gate. In fact, I hate to break into to you Dolgion, but you aren't going to see any new games that are more similar to Baldur's Gate than Dragon Age for a very long time. I'd further guess that actually you even see any further Bioware games that have as much as an 'old-school' design as Dragon Age did. I think DA is the last big budget game of that kind of game, for a long time to come.



The next Dragon Age will have a more streamlined focus, and even less relation to the pen and paper roots of Baldur's Gate and that game's ilk.



Final note: I played Dragon Age in 3d. Well 3d Vision, like 3d 3d. It's no big deal. After an hour of playing I went back to my good ole 2D display. I wish more game dev's would spend less on graphics and more on AI, but that's just me.

Dolgion Chuluunbaatar
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@Samuel



I didn't exactly say that combat doesn't require much strategy, only up to the point where I got (to the troll fight). I played the human mage origin, and during which the party combination changed a few times. Sure I had to pause quite often and reposition etc but that's not what I understand to be real strategy. All the enemies I had encountered where either melee enemies running up to me or ranged ones where I ran up to them.



Let's take a look at the tower with the troll. It kinda annoys me that I got to fight darkspawn after darkspawn after darkspawn without any riddles in between or anything interesting to discover (as BG2 would) and then just get a troll in my face that I killed by simple aggro-management. I can't speak for the entirety of DA:O and I didn't conceive this post as a review anyways (which I will give after I'm done with the game, hadn't had time to continue my savegame :/).



Kudos for the AI scripts in DA:O though, I really liked the detailed customization depth which lessens tedious micro management - a consequent evolution on the BG2 AI script options.



I suppose the tactical depth of BG2 comes from the many mages the player has to fight against, where you'd pause before battle and it would become a real spell vs spell craze. Mages were pretty much key to the fights in BG2, and I don't really see that focus in modern RPGs in general.





@Kevin



Dragon Age is a descendant of Baldur's Gate, yes. But it doesn't provide quite the same experience as a BG3 would, at least from how I'd conceive it (3D or no 3D). It's nice that the game has a steady flow, but on the other hand that makes it feel dumbed down. I would mention especially the fact that any 'knocked down' party members get up automatically and heal up a lot of their health in no time after the fight. It's sort of undermines the feel that these are really fights to be taken serious where my heroes are in serious danger.



In BG2, after a good skirmish at least I'd have to take a rest or cast some healing spells, which are also costly due to the one-spell-per-day mechanic. I know this breaks flow, but a) it's more 'realistic' and b) forces me to choose my spells for memorization wisely and therefore I cast spells more wisely too and finally c) makes me feel like this is a real adventure and not some kind of speed-run to the boss (though to be fair again, the tower sequence IS a speed-run to the troll).



One problem I see with mana instead of D&D style spell-per-day is that in theory I could just buy mass amounts of potions to run through fights. But I suppose that is a topic in itself for another write up sometime later.



I'm speaking halfway out of experience from KOTOR here which felt more similar to DA:O in its combat than BG2.

Dolgion Chuluunbaatar
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True, but often it is better to create something original rather than take on a topic/theme that has been done before a lot. Bioware was right to keep this certain degree of originality while reusing a common fantasy styled world.



It's one thing to create interesting characters and stories, but it is another to create an interesting world or space around them. That can be a great deal of the fun factor for many gamers if done well. Reusing a common fantasy theme does not make me "Woooow this is so cool, these elves are fascinating" anymore , at least not as much as it did when I read LotR. A game like DA:O feels familiar in that, which doesn't have to be a bad thing (it can be a good thing even). But certainly that fascination and feeling of wanting to discover the unknown gets lost with the decrease of originality.


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