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Blogs

  Cutting Through The Fog Of Dark Souls (Part Two)
by Josh Bycer on 10/15/11 12:51:00 pm   Expert Blogs   Featured Blogs
33 comments Share on Twitter Share on Facebook RSS
 
 
The following blog was, unless otherwise noted, independently written by a member of Gamasutra's game development community. The thoughts and opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of Gamasutra or its parent company.

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(Warning: the following post is a closer look at the areas of Dark Souls, this entry will be spoiler filled and discussion can include spoilers, don't read unless you have beaten the game or don't care about spoilers.)

I've reached my boiling point with Dark Souls and can no longer play it without feeling my blood pressure rising. When I first wrote about the game I was about 30-40% done the main game, not counting optional areas. At this point, I'm close to 70-80% finish and can see more of the big picture of the game.

When Dark Souls works, it is a great experience, unlike anything else this year. However, the times that the design fails, and it does multiple times, it keeps the game from reaching the same heights as Demon's Souls. Before I begin, you should read my last post on Dark Souls, as I already covered some of the problems with the design there.

Let's start with how magic works. In the last post I talked about how building a pure caster build was almost impossible due to the limits of how many times you can use a spell. Getting further into a game I want to edit that to say that it is completely impossible to be a spell caster in Dark Souls. Basic spells that cast somewhat quickly do too little to be effective, while the decent spells leave you wide open for at least 4 to 5 seconds, which is a very long time when a boss is charging at you.

Originally I was going for a similar build that I had in Demon's Souls, which was a magical samurai. However, it never felt that magic was worth it in Dark Souls. By the time I created a weapon from a boss's soul, it was doing more damage per second then my strongest spell, and safer to use.

I know why the designers changed how magic worked, to force people into close combat more. However, I would argue that removing a potential option from your game does more harm than good. If someone wants to spend the time becoming a mage, they shouldn't be punished with systems designed against them.

Another point I want to talk about are my issues with the lack of shortcuts. As I got farther into the game, the amount of shortcuts open improved dramatically. Sen's fortress has a huge shortcut that literally drops you back at the start of the level from near the boss's chamber. However it remains to be answered why there are so few shortcuts in the world itself. I spent plenty of time doing nothing but running to and from bonfires. Blight town is a clear example of this. Even though there is a back and front way into the area, there are no shortcuts making the place a pain in the ass to get around and to get out of.

Eventually you do unlock a minor warping ability, but it only lets you warp between three bonfires once it is originally unlocked. This means that you still have to spend a lot of time running through areas you already went through because of the lack of bonfires and shortcuts.

Speaking about the level design, one problem that I had was that the graphics and art made the levels look aesthetically busy. I had plenty of times that I couldn't tell if I was looking at the right way, wrong way or about to kill myself. In Anno Londo, I was lost for about thirty minutes as I couldn't find the way out of the starting area. The Duke's Archives seem to be about repeating the same room structure and feels creatively flat. There were plenty of times in the game that I got lost by the sheer amount of visual content in the levels, hiding the right way to go. The crystal caves was a nightmare for me, as I killed myself several times thinking that the crystal below me was the correct path when instead I slid off to my doom.

Going through darkroot gardens, I completely missed the path to the butterfly boss several times because I couldn't see the way due to how the camera was pointing. The level design seems like it was design for visual quantity instead of quality.

Once again going back to Demon's Souls, the levels seemed to flow a lot better than in Dark Souls. Each area in a level had a different look and feel to it allowing you to figure out where you are by the environment. I rarely got lost in Demon's Souls, with exception to 5-2.

Moving on, the boss fights in Dark Souls were one of the worse parts of the game for me, especially coming from Demon's Souls. In one of my many posts on Demon's Souls, I talked about how every boss in the game was designed to provide a unique challenge, for example, you couldn't fight Man-eater the same way as Flame Lurker.

In Dark Souls, the majority of the bosses follow the same pattern of having a lot of health and requiring you to keep attacking until they die without any other real strategy. One big issue I have is that a lot of the bosses were designed to be fought with a 2nd person, as when you are in human form, there will be a summon sign outside of the boss room even when you are offline. This is a big issue for me and a huge departure from Demon's Souls. In Demon's Souls, you could fight every boss solo, but if you were online you could get a helping hand if needed.

What this meant was that the bosses were balanced and designed for single player fighting only and their stats were adjusted accordingly. In Dark Souls, bosses like the duo fight in Lundo, the spider boss in Blight town and the gargoyle fight at the parish pretty much require a second person by design. Fighting more than one enemy at once shows one of the main problems with the Demon's Souls style of combat, which I'm come back to further on. With the spider boss, she attacks so quickly and has so much health at that point of time, that you need someone to take the heat off of you to fight it.

Some of the later bosses seem like they belong in the Monster Hunter series and not Demon's Souls in how they are designed. They are slow moving creatures that rely on you spending 5 to 10 minutes hitting them to deal with their huge health bars, where they can kill you in 1 to 2 hits. The only boss fight that felt like a return to form was the Pinwheel fight in the Catacombs, as the boss produced copies of itself and you had to find the right one (like the false idol battle of Demon's Souls).

The Capra Demon is perhaps one of the worst offenders of bad boss design in the game, as it systematically hits every bad point of Dark Souls design. We have a boss in a narrow environment for the camera to get stuck on, able to attack with wide attacks making it hard to avoid. Who also has two fast moving enemies as back up keeping you from focusing on the real threat. The only way I saw how to beat this thing was to cheese it while standing in an area he can't get to.

The main theme of the issues that I have with Dark Souls and what I mentioned in the last entry is how Dark Souls seems to capitalize on the problems in Demon's Souls without improving them and being imbalance. About half way done the game, it was no longer exciting finding enemies who were placed in the blind spots of the camera forcing me to always keep my guard up; it just felt lazy at that point. Having to fight more groups of enemies while dealing with the poor collision detection without any fixes to the engine was bad form; worse, is when you head into the ruins and have to fight ghosts who not only have no collision detection to begin with, but can attack you through walls and floors.

On my first run in the ruins, I was stun killed in a narrow hallway by six ghosts who attacked me through the floor before I could raise my shield or see them. I also noticed far more technical issues present in Dark Souls compared to Demon's Souls. Slowdown occurred more often making it hard to react to attacks. I was also knocked through the floor in one area by a special attack and the only way out was to kill myself. Larger enemies are so big that the camera gets stuck on them every time, making the auto target more of a death sentence then being useful. Along with the control issues mentioned in the first entry, makes Dark Souls less polished compared to Demon's Souls.

Playing Dark Souls I had to "find the fun" more often than I did in Demon's Souls. Sure I got frustrated in Demon's Souls plenty of times, but I always felt like the game was fair with how I died. In Dark Souls it felt like the game's own mechanics were out to get me and while that is a challenge, it is a different kind of challenge compared to Demon's Souls. The concept of wandering around a vast, dangerous world was well done and I have no complaints about the overall regular enemy design. However, one of the mainstays of creating a proper sequel is to get the foundation set and fix any issues present in the first game. Dark Souls feels like someone built a 2nd floor on their house without making sure that the first floor was completely stable.

At this point I've lost my remaining desire to play the game and will probably shelve it for now. Maybe a patch or two could fix my issues, but I'm not holding my breath. It's very discomforting to me how one of the games I was dying to play has disappointed me to such a degree. For people new to the series as a whole, I still recommend Demon's Souls as an amazing title that still holds up and I would say to wait on Dark Souls so that it doesn't kill your wallet as much as your character.

Josh Bycer

 
 
Comments

Ramon Carroll
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Looks like I'm about as far as you are, Josh. I'm sorry that you haven't enjoyed the experience. So far, while the level of challenge can be frustrating at certain points, for the most part, I've enjoyed the victories that I've experienced and the challenges that I've overcome. I don't like the curse system that the game has, nor am I happy with how bad the FPS gets when you get into Blight Town, but I'm pretty much happy with everything else they've done. Its one of the best gaming experiences I've had in a while.



Obviously, not every game is for every person, and Dark Souls is not a game for you. I'm sorry you were disappointed, but I must confidently disagree with your recommendation of Dark Souls over Demon's Souls. I recommend that anyone who is interested in Dark Souls take this review with a grain of salt, compare it to the predominantly positive reactions by the gaming community over the internet (there are people that are very far into the game, some even having finished it, and are still happy with it), and then gauge that against the small pockets of people that just didn't like the changes.

Ramon Carroll
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Just FYI, I want to correct one line. I meant to say that I disagree with your recommendation of Demon's Souls over Dark Souls. I think Dark Souls is the next (and better) step up in this series.

Josh Bycer
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So you have no complaints about the bosses being less unique and diverse compared to Demon's Souls? Such as fighting ceaseless discharge, the wolf, iron golem,stray demon, or gaping dragon where the whole fight amounts to: wait for them to attack then hit a few times, run away and repeat until dead?



If you didn't think that the capra fight was poorly design by taking advantage of the faults in the engine, then you are blinded by the game. Lurking around, that fight is where I heard the most people complain about the game as the only viable strategy is to cheese it by hiding up the stairs and hoping that you make it up there before you are surrounded.

Ramon Carroll
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No, Josh. You can't use the "you're just blind" argument, because I'm not the only person disagreeing with you here. That's just like your "anyone who disagrees me on this loses all credibility" comment from part one of your review. Would you take me seriously if I said something like that to you? No, you wouldn't, so enough with the hand-waving.



The fact is that people liked the new changes. They ENJOYED the increased difficulty. Did I have trouble beating the Capra Demon? Yep, but I eventually took him out on my own, WITH a DAGGER. The point of the stairs is to take out the dogs, after that, if you know what you are doing and are equipped properly, you can duke it out with him without ever having to go back up the stairs, except to go heal. And by the way, the Capra Demon CAN follow you up those stairs. I've been killed many times by thinking that he wouldn't.



Instead of making such a huge issue about it, just use your humanity, go summon a phantom, and take him out together. That way, one of you can deal with the heat from the dogs while the other draws the demon's attacks.



Does it feel cheap that you are in such a small and cramped area when you are fighting him? Of course! Most of the fights feel cheap at first glance. That is, until you learn their weaknesses, and figure out an appropriate tactic to take them down. That's how Demon's Souls was. The philosophy hasn't changed. It just got more intense.

Jeff Beaudoin
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The Capra demon IS the cheapest fight that I have done in the game so far. And Josh is on point about the fact that it exploits weaknesses in the engine.



I knew after my first two attempts what my strategy should be (Use the stairs to get the dogs away from him and kill them, then focus on the demon), but executing it was a problem because of the engine issues that Josh mentioned.

The camera, targeting, blocking, and facing systems are so bad in enclosed areas that if I walked in and targeted the demon, rather than the dog that starts out with him, I was essentially screwed. That fight basically utilized all of those things for difficulty, rather than mechanics or interesting layout.



I agree less with Josh's other points about the magic system, bonfire placement, and difficulty, but the design of that particular fight is pretty indefensible, in my opinion.

Ramon Carroll
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Jeff, the camera and targeting system in the game is a well agreed upon complaint, and that was a contributing factor in that fight. It was the cramped space that made it so problematic. After being killed a couple of times by the Capra Demon, I realized that using the targeting system was suicide until after I'd dealt with the dogs first. After that, it worked just like it should.



I'm not sure how the "blocking" aspect was a bad mechanic. If you were a weaker character, and you tried to block through the double sword attack, then yeah, you're screwed. But that was not a bad mechanic. It was intended that way.



I only agree with you about the camera issue. Everyone knows that the camera is an issue in this game. Its not news.

Jeff Beaudoin
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I was referring to the way blocking works with the targeting system.



If you target the demon and he jumps over you or on top of you, you will swivel around. Since you only block from the front, the dogs can attack you from the sides/back without any real chance for you to do anything about it. Normally you handle this by positioning yourself so that you don't get flanked, but in this enclosed arena this is basically an impossibility.



Also, I have found that in every situation (including the Capra) NOT targeting was suicide, since wrangling my character to face the right direction with the camera spinning around and enemies engaging from multiple sides is... imprecise. Resulting in me losing my orientation because the camera decided to spin or not able to block because it is impossible to see my character's facing in relation to my enemies correctly.

Ramon Carroll
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Okay, I see what you are saying, but still, I can't understand why people are trying to battle all three of these guys at the same time. That, in and of itself, is suicide. My strategy was to immediately rush the demon to the right, and when he leaped forward with his massive two sword attack, I waited just before the impact, and dodged to the left. From there, I rushed up the stairs, got onto the ledge, and immediately turned around with my shield up to kill off the dogs. If anyone starts off this mission trying to target anything or put up their shield, they deserved to die. You must first take out the dogs, and then the difficulty of the fight diminishes dramatically. If you target him when the battle starts, then you can't focus on dodging him and the dogs and making it to the stairs safely.



After the dogs are gone, all you have to do is circle the dude, block his one sword attacks, dodge the two sword attacks, and cut away at him until he's dead. If you take two much damage, rush the stairs, heal up, and when he runs up after you, jump off and stabilize. Rinse and repeat. If he leaps over you and disorients your camera (something like that would disorient anyone in real life), just click off your auto target, and click it again to refocus.



Worrying about targeting or blocking in the first 5 seconds of the battle means getting beaten to a pulp.

Jeff Beaudoin
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That is basically the strategy I ended up using. I didn't have the luxury of not blocking, because if he got a lucky hit in during a roll or decided to side swipe me he would kill me in one hit every time if my shield wasn't mitigating the damage.



Also, your strategy revolves around avoiding a situation where the engine's mechanics screw you. That is Josh's point. If you are playing the engine instead of the game, then it is bad design.

Ramon Carroll
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Well, Jeff, if you are saying that putting the player in a small cramped room with a boss and two dogs, when the camera already doesn't handle itself well in such situations is a bad design decision, then you've got my 100% support. It wasn't a good decision. I never disagreed with that, as you would see if you read my posts. What I keep trying to reiterate, though, is that it doesn't break the game as much as Josh is implying. You take out the dogs first, and the camera issue is no longer an issue. Problem solved and you move on from there.

Jeff Beaudoin
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Right on. I think we are in agreement, though I think I fall somewhere between you and Josh in terms of how much of an issue I had with this fight.



For every other boss in the game I felt triumph and accomplishment when I figured out their mechanics and won by skill, perseverance, and (as you pointed out) adaptability.

When I finally beat the Capra Demon, I felt only disappointment that they replaced difficulty with exploitation of faults in their implementation.



I don't think it "broke the game" but it certainly broke the encounter and undermines (to some degree) all the game does up to that point to convince you that it will deal with you fairly, even when you die over and over.

Robert Boyd
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The gargoyles are actually pretty easy once you realize that they're vulnerable while they're using fire since they stop dodging. So if you're a mage, you wait until one uses fire, then lock on and start spamming spells until it's dead. If you're a warrior, you go to the side so the fire doesn't hit you, run up and start hacking until they're dead. As long as you have good spacial awareness so you don't let them trap you in a corner where you can't dodge the fire, it's really not that hard.



As for the Capra Demon, the first thoughts when you enter the room should be "Small room with a staircase, guess I'd better use the staircase to stay safe." Dodge or block the initial attack, climb up the stairs, kill the two dogs, and from then on, the battle's not that hard at all.



Both fights were quite hard the first time, but once I figured out a winning strategy, they were quite doable. On repeated playthroughs with different character builds, I was able to beat each fight on the first or second try. Skill & strategy does matter.



Not sure how you could miss the path to the butterfly boss when that's one of the shortest and most linear areas in the whole game (plus you can see the butterfly from a distance early on in the level).



Although playing hybrid characters can be fun, from what I've seen, it's more effective to pick one build type and focus on it. For example, I decided to try out a pure melee build and found it to be surprisingly good - I'm wielding massive weapons and strong shields and can 1-hit kill most regular enemies and deal substantial damage to bosses while also being able to successfully block the vast majority of attacks. When I'm done with that build, I'm going to try a pure mage build - with the boss ring that doubles your spell casts and enough Attunement, spell quantity shouldn't be a problem so then it's just a matter of killing things before they kill you.

Josh Bycer
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No I missed the path to the area of the butterfly from where the crest door was. Each time I went up to the door, the camera panned to the opposite direction of the path leading to the right.



Also in Anno Londo the narrow path you have to run up in the first area to reach the cathedral, I completely overlooked as it basically looked like I would slid off of it to my death.

Jeff Beaudoin
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It seems like your complaint is that the game didn't lead you down the path?



There is a ruined wall that ends there, making it pretty obvious that there is a path, if you pan your camera and look around.



Your Anno Londo cathedral example is better. They didn't do a good job of having the environment signal that you needed to get inside, since it essentially looks the same as the one on the other side that is irrelevant. I may not have found it so easily if not for the online message things.

Tyler Blankenship
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I don't mean to discredit your opinions, however, a good majority of the early bosses have a weakness towards fire. If you have trouble taking out their "huge health bars" then roll a Pyromancer or buy some of the firebombs for 50 souls each from the first merchant that you encounter. In terms of the games difficulty, I felt that If a boss couldn't kill me in one hit or a single combo then there was a good chance that I could eliminate him easily due to the easy use of healing items. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the game was easy. Just that with a extreme amount of patience and a tad bit of strategy, the enemies and traps can be surpassed. On that note, you picked some of the largest and most sluggish bosses in Dark Souls as examples, not to mention that the Capra Demon becomes a common enemy later in the game.

Josh Bycer
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"I like the "if you don't agree with me, you are blinded by the game" tact. That will see your point through."



Unfortunately that is a true statement here, I'm not looking at Dark Souls from the fan point of view, but as a designer. When you have a boss fight that is designed to work against the mechanics of the game, I don't care if it's the easiest thing in the world or the toughest, that is a poorly designed fight, end of story, and a huge departure from Demon's Souls.



Difficulty doesn't magically equal greatness, I've played plenty of difficult games that were poorly designed, and plenty of easy games that was excellently designed. There has to be a give and take, something that Demon's Souls got right, and something that Dark Souls missed. While my opinion has been in the minority here, I've lurked around to know that a lot of fans of Demon's Souls share my opinion.



There is something definitely off about Dark Souls, it is missing something from Demon's Souls that most people aren't catching. And as I said way back in the first post, there is not one main problem with Dark Souls, but several smaller issues hiding under the surface.

Ramon Carroll
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Apparently, you are the only person here who knows a thing about design, right? We're all just a bunch of rabid fans who blinded by our enthusiasm, while you share with us your enlightened and completely unbiased truths, right? Sorry, still not buying it.



Look, I'm glad you were able to survive the battle with the Capra Demon while on the stairs, because I couldn't stay there for more than a few seconds. He would either rush up the stairs and slam both swords into my forehead, or he would leap up from below me and clip me in the legs with them, causing the same amount of damage. Some people were lucky enough that he would miss them, but I wasn't. I didn't use any particular game mechanic against him. Once I killed the dogs, I fought him head on with a shield and a dagger. Took a little while, and with low vitality, I couldn't make many mistakes, but I eventually pulled it off. Its called adaptability.



Nobody is saying that difficulty makes greatness. We just think that you are equating your difficult experiences in this game with bad design, and we humbly disagree with your final assessment. We just believe that you allowed this game to get to you a little too much, and that it probably was never meant for you in the first place. I'm not trying to offend you here. I'm just telling you exactly how this whole thing keeps coming off to me.



And perhaps most people aren't "catching" the things you bring up because they were too busy enjoying the game and its challenges. You know, one of the most important goals of design, right? Fun. If MOST people had fun playing the game, then the design philosophy was spot on. "End of story".

Ian Richard
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With all due respect... being a designer is about satisfying your TARGET audience.



Dark Souls was never intended to target everyone. It was intended to target those of us who enjoy extreme challenge and punishment for mistakes. Instead of satisfying everyone, Dark souls has been designed to satisfy a specific breed of masochist.



Looking at the number of rabid followers that pounced on you for disliking the game is a clear indication of how satisfied the target audience is. Satisfying their target is a sign of good design.

Jeff Beaudoin
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@Ian



Satisfying your target audience is not a free pass out of design critique.



Are the designs for Gears of War 3, Call of Duty 4, Grand Theft Auto, or Deus Ex: HR above being examined as well?

Ian Richard
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@Jeff There is a difference between Design Examination and "If you don't agree with me you are blinded by the game."



Gears of War, Mass Effect, and GTA bore me to tears. I find them to be some of the shallowest wastes of time I've encountered in years of gaming. But does that mean that they are poorly designed and that all fans are blind and wrong?



Heck no! Those games weren't made for me. I prefer games that make me think, plan, and adapt. I'm not one of the people who enjoy repetition and being spoonfed story for minimal effort.



But those design works for many people. You will NEVER create a design that works for each and every player ever. Instead, you pick your target audience and make the best experience for those individuals that you can. Many companies target wide audiences... From Software targeted a very specific one.



If you make a game for kids... being boring for adults isn't necessarily bad design.



If you make a game for those old-school Flight Sim fans... ultra realistic and complicated flight mechanics are not bad design.



If you make a game for old-school RPG fans... lots of stats is not bad design.



Dark Souls design may not have been good design to Josh, but many of the masochistic individuals have felt that the design was very good. That doesn't make them blind... that just meant that the design worked for their personalities.



Neither group is wrong because the effectiveness of a design depends on the player himself. One players streamlining is another player Dumbing down.



I'm all for Josh's right to an opinion. I'm not saying he's wrong to dislike the game... or forgiving the technically flaws that he's encountered. I will go as far as saying that I respect that he had the guts to disagree with a majority.



My only issue is that he attacked everyone else because they disagreed with him.



People aren't blind because they see things differently.

Josh Bycer
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So far in these two entries, all you have said has amounted to "I'm right because I beat the section and you're wrong". When I gave explicit examples of design issues not seen in Demon's Souls, you completely wrote them off and ignored them, or said that I was attacking your opinion.



As I said further up, it doesn't matter if you beat the Capra demon on the first try, or the 40th, that is an example of bad design. Especially when you sit it side by side with the boss fights in Demon's Souls. The fact that you completely disregarded my statement about Anno Londo's cheap section in favor of saying that I attacked your opinion shows me that you are not here for a discussion, but to defend the game at all costs.



You have not even agreed with me on the simplest "in your face" issues, like the auto target not working right, phantom control bug or slowdown at in opportune times. All these issues are just in my head and I'm being blinded because the game made me sad right? While I came off as a detractor here, you have come off as a complete fan-boy.

Ramon Carroll
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Sure Josh, let's just ignore how you stated that people who disagree with you are just blind, and then tried to deny saying that right after.



I didn't say that I'm right because I beat the section. You gave examples of what you saw as design issues, and I see them as increased difficulty and smaller room for error. I've never denied that the camera issues and auto targeting were problems, especially at the Capra Demon. I just disagree that these issues are as big of a problem as you are trying to pose. You described the stair example as a cheap way to exploit the mechanics, when I don't see it as that. I see it as a deliberate design decision to give players a couple of seconds to breath before the enemies rush after you up the stairs. If you were somehow able to remain up the stairs without every having to engage someone, then I'm sorry, but I didn't have that experience. The guy would either rush up the stairs, or hit me from below. As I stated, I didn't beat the dude by "cheesing it from the stairs", as you like to call it. I fought him head on after killing off the dogs. If you couldn't pull it off, then its not because the design failed, its because you did.



Secondly, I didn't disregard your statement about Anno Londo. I answered it directly, and stated that I didn't have your experience, and I assumed that your character was too weak for that area, because my experience was nowhere near as frustrating as yours was. That's called an answer, friend.



I don't know a thing about the phantom control bug so I can't say a thing about it. Everyone knows the camera is an issue, just as much as it was in Demon's Souls. Or are you about to say that the auto targeting and camera features were somehow better in Demon's Souls? If so, then I'd be inclined to question that you even played the first game.



Finally, if you'd learn to read, you would see that in part one of your review, I very clearly layed out some problems I had with the designers decision to add curses and dramatically slow down soul collection. It was my very first comment to your review of the game, and you responded directly to it. I even offered some suggestions that I think would have made the game much more enjoyable. So no, I am not defending the game "at all costs", as I very clearly specified things I didn't like about Dark Souls. I'm just questioning your so called "design" perspective. I still disagree with you, along with many others, but I guess that just makes me a "complete fan-boy" right

Matt H
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"I only agree with you about the camera issue. Everyone knows that the camera is an issue in this game. Its not news."



Indeed, the camera and targeting were terrible in Demon's Souls as well. And instead of fixing these issues in Dark Souls, they made fights (see: Capra Demon) specifically designed to exploit these flaws in their own engine. As many people have pointed out, Capra Demon is not a hard boss, but the camera angle and targeting bosses that you have to fight at the same time are quite challenging.



I want to be challenged by the game's bosses, not by the game's awful controls. And the fact that the game makes a point of using its own broken mechanics to create difficulty is a mark of bad design.

Jeff Beaudoin
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Your post has some good points, but I think the tone comes off as fairly condescending. The tendency is to defend how good the game is (which is certainly the case), rather than to look at the flaws of the game objectively (of which there are many).



The placement of the bonfires is actually brilliantly done, in my opinion. They serve as temporary hubs, giving you a staging point to explore whatever area is your current target. The only ones I feel the need to travel between with any regularity are the Firelink Shrine one and the forest blacksmith one (which is easy and fast). The brilliance of the way the areas are connected is that you can literally run from one area to any other within at most five minutes, once you unlock the various shortcuts. The only real failing in this department that I have seen was Ash Lake, which should have had an opening back up to another area, rather than forcing you to trek back through the great hollow.



I am playing a pyromancer, and I rarely run out of magic. My attunement isn't even that high, so I don't really see how running out would be an issue if you were building straight magic.



On the other side of things:



I agree that some of the fights are unfair and exploit engine problems more than they should. The Capra Demon is certainly the best example of this, but also the approach to the second bonfire in Anor Londo (with the archers). Most of the game does not follow these examples, however.



The necessity of having a shield is one complaint I do have about the combat system. I would like to try a character that dual wields or uses a two handed weapon, but don't see how the game is even possible without a block. Dodging or parrying every attack seems too risky/unpredictable in most situations.



Additionally, the information the game gives you is often (intentionally?) misleading or just plain wrong. Pyromancy is a great example, as they tell you on two different occasions that int will make it better, when it simply doesn't. Other things like unclear text on items like the Fire Keeper's souls can trick you into taking irreversible and detrimental actions. This may be intentional and part of the game's "charm" but is inexcusable in my opinion.

Josh Bycer
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"Your post has some good points, but I think the tone comes off as fairly condescending. The tendency is to defend how good the game is (which is certainly the case), rather than to look at the flaws of the game objectively (of which there are many)."



I admit that I was coming off that way, as I seemed to have lower myself to Ramon's constant attacks. At this point, I think I've said everything that I wanted to and I'm going to leave it at that for people to decide what their opinion on the game is.

Ramon Carroll
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Attacks? Give me a break. You are free to examine my comments again if you'd like. You'll see little to no evidence of an ad hominem. If you can't handle people disagreeing with you or questioning your arguments, then you shouldn't bother posting on the internet. I challenged you over and over again, trying to specifically address the things I disagree with, while even giving some examples of things I don't like about the game, yet your final assessment of my me and my comments is "complete fan boy"? Please spare me the drama, and grow up.

Ethan Verrall
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One of the issues you have run into, is more based on the confusion of the game in general... that is it's terrible at communicating to you, the options you have. The multiplayer issue, a large majority of the bosses, have AI phantoms that you can summon to help you through them if you are a live... you don't have to be online.



I'm sorry you had a tough time using Magic, it's honestly still one of the most overpowered ways to go in the game, which magic did you do? Pyro? Sorceries? Miracles? I haven't tried Miracles, but heavy sorcery and Pyro are still very overpowered and make boss fights incredibly easy. The difference in Dark Souls vs Demon Souls, is you have to pick your battles as a Mage... are you going to save your spells for the boss, or clear the level and fight him without them. (although depending on your attunement level this becomes less of a hindrance). It's hard to go PURE mage and never use a weapon... but even in Demon Souls that was difficult, even starting as the Royalty, you still generally had to hit things from time to time with your weapons.



I'll agree I felt like the bosses were more original in Demon Souls, but that could be simply because I recognize some of the play styles of the old bosses in these new bosses. Every boss here is still quite original.. but less special, because of having played Demon Souls all the way through I think.



I do feel your anger a bit on the Shortcuts... but in the vast majority of areas they do exist... my problem with them is that they are often not obvious which means that sometimes you miss them and are forced to do a long walk when you probably didn't have to. (and no travel shortcut should ever be 'hidden' imo).



The enemies that can pass through walls... I agree are aggravating, and it feels like that wasn't possibly play tested a lot. Otherwise though the collision detection in general feels very good to me, the camera you can make arguments against... but cameras are so situational, it really depends on the person. I have yet to see any game that has the end all be all camera.



Now targeting... (I have Dark Souls for the Xbox, maybe it's different for the ps3). Targeting has gone gotten worse, I found it much easier in Demon Souls to not only target, but cycle between targets, while in Dark Souls I haven't found any control to cycle at all.



Both games being extremely open world, and very little to no information on them, unless you look at guides or wikis, or follow those guides or wikis, the game experience will be very different for you. If either game, was the casual gamer that did not look up anything about the game or never used the internet... then I would say it's a terribly designed game. That just is not their target audience, although they made many changes in Dark Souls that make it easier.

Josh Bycer
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I was going for a sorcery build, one of the problems I had was that I missed Big Hat Logan's location in Sen's Fortress and had to look it up, as he is the high level sorcery guy, so on my first build when I fought the duo, my strongest spell was the great heavy soul spell.



Regarding shortcuts, I got lucky in the catacombs that someone left a message where the hidden bonfire was halfway through, if I didn't get that clue and missed that bonfire I would have probably raged more through that place :)



Targeting is as bad on the PS3 as it is on the 360. Sometimes the auto lock doesn't automatically sweep to the next enemy which can be very annoying when you go to back up and instead turn around when the enemy attacks.



And another thing that I noticed last night about the soul distributions that is way off is how strong enemies give less souls then weaker enemies. The giant knights in Anno Londo that can heal and do massive damage, give about 1200 souls. The weak sorcerer in darkroot gardens that you can kill in five seconds gives 2000 souls. While the giant tar balls in the Londo Ruins gives 5000 souls.

Jeff Beaudoin
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Flicking the right stick from side to side is supposed to cycle targets.



It works badly enough that not knowing this isn't much of a disadvantage.

Matt Boudreaux
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No offense to Mr. Bycer, but these two Dark Souls blogs come off as "Dark Souls was mean to me." Well, yea, that's what it does. Or did you expect your time in Demon's Souls to launch you well ahead in the game? I've died (Lord, how I've died) numerous times but none of them felt cheap or undeserved. I played Demon's Souls a metric buttload (which is slightly larger than a standard buttload) and feel this is a very worthy successor and an amazing game over all.



I haven't had any issue finding shortcuts. Most I find with helpful tips from players, but I found one yesterday just by wandering around and exploring. Same with Bonfires. You start to expect "Okay, there should be a bonfire around here somewhere..." and normally there is.



The bosses feel much like Demon's Souls to me. Each has it's own style, perils, and weaknesses. Capra Demon took me a good 3ish hours to beat, but I'm using a dagger (Ramon - we're dagger bros!) so I'm rolling around in light armor, with a weapon that requires me to be right next to the opponent, and only have a small Heater shield as my protection. But, by God, if I didn't jump out of my seat when I tore that bastard a new one. And now I can do it blindfolded. Same with the Belfry Gargoyles. In fact, I've only summoned players for 2 bosses - and that was more because I wanted to offer someone a chance to earn some humanity rather than I needed their help (although they certainly pulled their weight).



Targeting hasn't bothered me, and I use it rather often.



Anor Lando made sense to me where to go, that entire area is rather straight forward IMO. Especially compared to Blighttown or even 5-1/5-2 in Demon's Souls. The giant knights were push overs once I learned their patterns, if they heal then they are standing still which means I can wail on them - most don't survive that heal. :)



Again, I think you came into the game with preconceived notions that you would be able to triumph over it easily given your Demon's Souls experience but instead were unceremoniously destroyed just as a newbie Dark Souls player. That's okay. Happened to me too. Dying is what you're supposed to do in Dark Souls. You learn and eventually overcome your obstacle. That's what's so amazing about the Souls games. They tell you nothing (check the instruction manual, it's 5 pages, 2 are of images of consoles), they toss you into an unforgiving world, and you begin to grow your character / skills. There's much depth to the world, you just have to look for it because it's not going to make things obvious for you.

Ethan Verrall
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Flicking the right stick to cycle targets only works on the PS3 version like in Demon Souls, for some reason the xbox version has no cycling... and I have no idea why. Serves me right I guess for going to xbox360 (all cross games I generally get for xbox360).



Missing somewhat crucial parts can be what makes Demon Souls / Dark Souls the most unforgiving game, and if there were not well made guides on the web for certain parts, I would probably be much more frustrated. (Demon Souls for example, if you rescue the NPC that eventually will kill everyone in the hub if you don't kill him, can make that game very frustrating if you didn't know about it beforehand online).



Now Dark Souls does provide you more information than Demon Souls did, which is good, I just wish there was more. Some of the major parts, such as the Humanity/Being alive/Summoning should just really be explained some where in the game.



One big gripe I have, which probably was done for technical reasons, is the split up of players on multiple servers... This has really made the game feel way less populated than demon souls, it seems like getting summoned or invaded happens so much less... not to mention trying to summon or get summoned by friends is a huge pain (I know I know, it's not meant to be a co-op game, but if your roommates are literally playing a room away... it shouldn't be tough to summon each other).

Ramon Carroll
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I agree with you, Ethan. Their decision regarding the online servers may very well be the worst decision they made with this game. Its really ticked off a large portion of their core fans, and they've been protesting on the main forums since the game's release. I really hope they do something, otherwise they will lose a lot of people.

Dana Fortier
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Making the messaging stone take up valuable quick-use inventory space is an odd decision. I think it's contributing to the fact almost no messages have ratings anymore. Anyone have any thoughts on this?


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