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There is no secret that developers have no respect for games journalists, I personally consider them mostly useless and barely removed from the audience. I suspect the IGF awards are no more representative of the innovation happening right now in games than the random top ten picks every games journalist produces when they can't think of anything else to write.
2: Film awards are seldom handed out to animated features, despite some of the best and highest grossing films being animated. One very simple reason for this is that many of the judges are actors and actors do not like the idea that films are being made that do not give actors valuable face time on screen.
(as a side note, animated films could be considered very similar production wise to art heavy games, remember that when next you hear how great the film industry is and how the games industry must copy it.)
3: Actors believe films should contain prominent actors, and judge accordingly.
4: Writers believe games should contain prominent writing, and judge accordingly.
With that in mind and my suspicions that one of the biggest problems with the IGF awards is that many of the judges are primarily writers. I have simply gone through the list of IGF judges for 2009 to see how many of them could be considered fully entrenched in this old media.
Personally, I may be overly conservative and should probably mark more of these people as writers but lets give them the benefit of the doubt. Feel free to disagree with some of my classifications but I doubt you will be able to knock the number of judges who are writers down to less than 50% no matter how much you argue.
So I make the IGF judges to be comprised of 26 writers and 16 people who are possibly not. Again I want to stress that I feel I am being generous to these 16 people.
These are 26 people who you could remove totally from their relevance to games simply by dangling a good book deal in front of them. They would be gone in a second, killing trees as fast as they can and they would not look back. At least one of them is only there because they got a book deal about games.
That's a judging panel of 62% writers, call it 42% if you only want to count the *18* self confirmed journalists.
Is that a healthy thing in a new medium, for its innovation and self promotion to be controlled so much by creative members of an old one?
I feel that the games that these judges have chosen speak for themselves.
You can make up your own mind but at least scan the list below and notice how many self confirmed journalists it involves.
Finally I apologise if the above is badly written; my mistake for not being a writer.
notes: my experience with games designers is that they are frustrated writers, hence the tendency to mark them as such.
If your name is on the list and marked as a writer and you wish to convince me that you are not, please communicate this fact to me without using words.
* Jonathan Blow, Number-None (Braid creator and previous IGF honoree) * Ian Bogost, Persuasive Games (author, columnist and social game developer) - Raigan Burns, Metanet (IGF winner and N+ co-creator) * Tom Buscaglia (IGDA board member, indie-friendly game attorney) * Russell Carroll, Reflexive/GameTunnel (Wik maker's indie marketing expert, indie website EIC) * Heather Chaplin (veteran game journalist, Smart Bomb co-author, PBS contributor) - Jamie Cheng, Klei Entertainment (Eets creator, Indie Games Summit speaker) - Mark Cooke, Grasshopper Manufacture (former Nihilistic staffer, long-time IGF judge) * Brian Crecente, Kotaku (Gawker-owned game weblog's chief editor) * N'Gai Croal, Newsweek (Level Up blogger) * Mark DeLoura (former Game Developer magazine EIC, industry veteran) - Phil Fish, Polytron (Fez and GAMMA co-creator, IGF award-winner) - Kyle Gabler, 2D Boy (Experimental Gameplay Project contributor, World Of Goo co-designer) * Kieron Gillen, RockPaperShotGun (PC Gamer contributor, Phonogram graphic novel author) * Chaim Gingold (Spore editor design lead) * Chris Grant, Joystiq (EIC of leading AOL-owned game blog) * Kyle Gray, Electronic Arts - Tiburon (Henry Hatsworth team leader, Experimental Gameplay Project contributor) - Alec Holowka, Infinite Ammo/Bit Blot (co-creator of IGF Seumas McNally Award-winning title Aquaria) - Rod Humble, The Sims Label/EA (Head of The Sims franchise, The Marriage art-game creator) * Soren Johnson, EA Maxis (Designer for Spore, lead designer on Civilization IV) * Chris Kohler, Wired (Game|Life weblog editor) * Dave Kosak, GameSpy (veteran IGF commentator, GameSpy journalist) * Elan Lee, Fourth Wall Studios (ARG creator, 42 Entertainment co-founder, ilovebees designer) * Tony Mott, Edge Magazine (UK game magazine EIC) - Petri Purho, Kloonigames (IGF Grand Prize winner with Crayon Physics Deluxe) - Chris Rausch, SuperVillain Studios (Order Up! creator, Fl0w PSP version developer) * Chris Remo, Gamasutra (Gamasutra Editor-At-Large, former Shacknews EIC) * Brian Reynolds, Big Huge Games (Alpha Centauri, Rise Of Nations designer, former IGDA board chairman) - Brian Robbins, Fuel Industries (Casual game creator/evangelist, long-time IGF judge) * Sam Roberts, IndieCade (Slamdance Games curator, indie festival stalwart) * Margaret Robertson, Lookspring (Former Edge editor, BBC columnist) * Jim Rossignol, RockPaperShotgun ('This Gaming Life' author, Wired contributor) - Andy Schatz (Former IGF finalist with Venture Africa, IGF Awards presenter) - Kellee Santiago, thatgamecompany (IGF Student Showcase winner with Cloud, Flow/Flower co-creator) - Mare Sheppard, Metanet (IGF winner and N+ co-creator) - Steve Swink, Flashbang Studios (Jetpack Brontosaurus developer, IGF/Indie Game Summit co-organizer) * Stephen Totilo, MTV News (MTV Multiplayer weblog editor) * Tim W., IndieGames.com (Independent game website veteran editor) - Matthew Wegner, Flashbang Studios (IGF/Indie Game Summit co-organizer, Off-Road Velociraptor Safari developer) * Mick West (former Game Developer magazine columnist, Neversoft co-founder) - Don Wurster, Gastronaut Studios (Small Arms co-creator, Indie Games Summit speaker) * Derek Yu, Bit Blot (Aquaria co-designer, TIGSource website editor)
Wow, Kriss, this is interesting. Whether you think game designers are frustrated writers or not, you don't know our judges very well, since you've bolded a crapload of people who are actually prominent programmers or programmer-designers (or programmer-designer-artists, even!)
Not even counting Mick West (who was programming columnist for Game Developer magazine for a number of years), I see: Derek Yu, Brian Reynolds, Soren Johnson, Kyle Gray, Chaim Gingold, Mark DeLoura, Ian Bogost, and Jon Blow. Pretty sure all of those guys, while they may have done design as well, are also technically proficient. Jon coded Braid, etcetera.
Anyhow, I only count 13 of the 42 that I would explicitly and solely consider journalists, FWIW - and two of those (Margaret and N'Gai) also work with developers nowadays. Our intention, as much as we had one, was to have roughly 1/3rd of the judges be indie-friendly journalists and the remainder split between the mainstream and indie game industries. We'll be expanding the judge pool further this year, and we hope to keep that kind of ratio in place.
I don't think Kriss meant to discount the technical or artistic proficiency of anyone he bolded. I think he's looking at practical output.
Also note that it's not only about journalism. It's about writing. It could be a book deal to write a very technical book about game design, but that book deal could be enough to move them out of game making, if they're interested in it at all. What I'm understanding from Kriss is that people with vested interest in telling others what to do and how to do it aren't the best candidates for picking excellent games, because their choices are likely to advance their views of what should be, rather than rewarding the excellence of what is. (Kriss, please tell me off if I'm off.)
That philosophy would seem to lead to "You Have to Burn the Rope" being a nominee for an award in innovation - there's nothing in it that's innovative to games, but plenty that people think should be in innovative games. I'm still curious about what games couldn't surpass Rope for a nomination in that category, and if it was worth it to ignore those games and their creators in favor of making a statement by nominating Rope.
I'm not totally agreeing with Kriss' points, but I do think there's some validity to them, and it's good to see someone bring it up. Members of the media will pick and promote games they like anyway through the very media that make them relevant enough to be invited to the judges' panel. What do journalists bring to the debate in choosing who wins, and how does their participation improve the credibility of the awards?
I suspect designers of being primarily writers, all designers need to be at least mild programmers or they are not very good designers. But to take on the role of designer, you are a writer at heart, if your other talents are strong you would get sidetracked into using them.
IE I'm certain mr blow would be happier with a nice book deal, much much happier, possibly even involving poetry, yes I think that would make him much happier.
I also suspect my definition of technically proficient is on a somewhat different scale to yours but don't worry I realise my standards are far too high and sure plenty of people bolded also have technical or artistic ability as well as an interest in writing.
Anyway, you want to take it down to 13. I would disagree but no matter, that is still a sizeable chunk. Now tell me, why do you need to include any journalist at all?
Shouldn't they already be doing their damnedest to find and promote games they see as worth promoting? If not, why not and what is their main role? Repeating what other people say only with a snarky comment? Complaining about the lack of originality of mainstream games? Baiting the audience for web traffic? Calling japanese slave developers lazy for not creating content faster than they can play them? Compiling top ten lists of video babes in between writing essays on how to fix video game journalism?
Journalists have the same career plans as actors; do work that creates self publicity and this face time causes success. There is a history of journalists sidling into the games industry and ending up being creative directors (again game designers=writer), its one of those career paths like moving up from tester to producer.
Not all journalists end up as creative directors, but hey, not all testers end up as producers.
So saying this journalist is now working with a game developer does not mean anything, except that they have been successful in promoting themselves. If you want me to respect a journalist, show me the developer they personally saved from starvation by promoting their work more than they promote themselves.
I do not care if the developer is indie, that does not mean anything. Just show me that they care more about promoting the games that they believe in than they do about promoting themselves and their writing talents and possibly that of writers within the games industry.
Please do not misconstrue my opinions as hating writers. I want good writers to work within the games industry. I want good journalism. I am happy to collaborate with writers. What I am not so keen on is my media of choice being judged by people heavily invested in another form of media that may not be compatible.
Imagine writing a book and then finding the only thing that seems to really matter is the cover art or which font it was typesetted in.
Interesting observation... Even if it seems a little hostile towards gaming journalists... At their core they are gamers ya know... Interesting non-the less.
First off, it is a valid point to recognize the obvious 'journalistic influence' the panel of IGF judges hold over the event because this factor alone will obviously yield different results than a panel consisting of say, only designers, programmers or producers would.
Second, I think you have to take this point at face value... This is a gaming festival created and held by gaming journalists. While the panel (and event coordinators) may mostly consist of journalists this is not necessarily a negative aspect, it simply means that a writers opinion is more likely to be stated. The big question is how should the gaming community as a WHOLE see this event? Should it be taken as seriously because it is decided by gaming journalists? People who no doubt have dedicated a ton of energy to the cause of critiquing and observing games but not necessarily having anything to do with the actual development.
I personally believe it would be wonderful (and fair) to see a diverse variety of industry 'professionals' as well as the hopefuls on and off the judging panel.
...Like they say, it takes all kinds.
-Thanks
Oh yeah - and in response to the above poster's opinion, "all designers need to be at least mild programmers or they are not very good designers." COMPLETELY unfounded... As a designer AND artist (not programmer) your opinion comes across as blatantly ignorant, FYI.
Fair enough, Kriss. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the main point of this piece. We do think it's important to get a range of opinions in the IGF judging, and indie-friendly journalists are one of the ones that we are intentionally using.
Also, Maxwell - re: 'this is a gaming festival created and held by gaming journalists' - to be fair, I was a game developer for about 8 years or so at companies including Kuju and Infogrames/Accolade (albeit not a technical one, so Kriss will hate me!), and Think Services Game Group's Kathy Schoback is a veteran of Sega and Ageia, among others. So I think, again, we have a good balance of perspectives.
I think this is a really fascinating idea, but you're definitely undermining your credibility by trying to shoehorn in as many people as you can -- having a solid case for 10 judges seems like it would be better than a weak case for 20.
Some examples:
Blow is the biggest mistake on the list -- he's one of the most stereotypical hardcore programmers I've ever met! AFAIK his lengthy games career is all programming contracts, I don't think he's ever written anything aside from the slides to presentations. This is borderline ridiculous, it just seems like the literary aspect of Braid rubbed you the wrong way and you're reacting to that.. if you ignore the writing you're still left with an excellent game.
Derek Yu just released Spelunky, a roguelike-platformer, and an AMAZING example of perfection in terms of mechanics. As with Blow I have no idea where you got the "writer" thing from as he doesn't really write anything.. unless you count his tutorials on isometric pixel art?
Sam Roberts is another person I can vouch for; he does happen to be a total literature nerd but he's also a total games nerd and he's into games for their own sake. If you simply look at the Slamdance and Indiecade rosters you'll find just about a diverse selection of games as possible.
Every judge is going to have their own personal bias, for instance I could imagine that Bogost would really like a game that used the gameplay for clever rhetorical purposes. Ideally the judges are diverse enough (and the judging process robust enough) that subjective bias isn't statistically significant, and is instead lost in background noise. For every judge that may be biased towards writing and narrative-heavy exposition you'll have another (like me) who may be biased in the other direction.
Trying to lump this many judges into the same "frustrated writer" mold is not productive, and frankly putting people like Blow and Yu in this list -- people who have demonstrated a proficiency in game development and in the importance of gameplay and mechanics -- really undermines whatever point you're trying to make.
Those two would be at the _top_ of my list for indie game judges, since I know they both care about and are interested in GOOD GAMES.
Also, the quote "games journalists, I personally consider them mostly useless and barely removed from the audience" suggests that your concept of journalists seems to be grounded in stereotype rather than experience, if you've ever talked with good journos (say, Brandon Sheffield or Mathew Kumar) you'd know that some of them know and think more about games than many developers ever will.
That quote is also incredibly dismissive to the audience. Frankly I'd rather have my game judges by passionate gamers or journalists than a bunch of entrenched AAA industry mooks (aka "talented games industry veterans").
Finally, let's just look at this year's winners to see how many of them feature NO IN-GAME TEXT OF ANY SORT (beyond menus and points/score GUI stuff), and definitely no narrative or plot/story:
Blueberry Garden
Between
BrainPipe
Cortex Command
Musaic Box
Tag
Osmos
Machinarium
Yes, that's right -- out of all the winners, NONE of them feature prominent in-game writing, and in fact only ONE of them (Machinarium) has anything even remotely resembling a plot or narrative -- and in that case it's completely presented visually through non-verbal exposition!
I would argue that the problem with your blog post isn't that it's badly written, it's that it's cataclysmically, almost comically poorly thought-out.
"There is no secret that developers have no respect for games journalists."
That's a pretty ludicrous claim to make. As a developer, I actually do respect and enjoy talking to journalists. As far as the professional relationship between developers and journalists, I actually consider journalists to be a sect of forgiving gamers to whom a game I make should appeal to the same. Ideally, journalists will go through more effort to get games to work, spend more time with a game whether they like it or not, and actually devote some real thought to their opinion on a game amidst the rest of the commercial offerings. Journalists may not have the mindset of a developer or designer, but as gamers journalists are typically far more well-versed in the current gaming offerings and, as such, as probably in a better place to judge games than most of the developers I know.
I think your topic could have been an interesting one, but you seem to be more angry and jaded than constructively argumentative.
Yes pretty much, sorry if I phrased anything too aggressively, but really I am not a writer and I dislike spending my time writing when I have so many other things to be done.
Wow. So you think all designers are writers? What the hell are you talking about? How is scripting an encounter or designing a level writing? That's a ridiculous assertion that has no basis in reality. It's nice that you can criticize people while also being complete uninformed about what you are talking about. Learn about what your average designer does before you talk about their "job".
Your profile exclaims how much you like to write, so yes you like journalists and yes you have decided to side with other writers, they are the good guys, they share your opinions.
Isn't that my point?
I am angry and jaded, it is preferable to being burnt out, yet I would remind you that I am still creatively active and hopeful so please do not paint me as negative fool doing nothing but complaining.
Consider it an alternative viewpoint and try not to dismiss it.
So, I'm a frustrated writer? Wow, that's a new one... well, perhaps I am in the sense that every time I try to write fiction, it's TERRIBLE. That's pretty frustrating. :)
"I am angry and jaded, it is preferable to being burnt out, yet I would remind you that I am still creatively active and hopeful so please do not paint me as negative fool doing nothing but complaining."
But that's all you are doing. You're not providing a thought-provoking complaint in anything but the high-concept of your article, you aren't making any well-argued points, and you don't even seem to present a consistent perspective other than "people that write are bad."
No. They aren't. Maybe some are, but most are not. I really don't understand this obsession with if you are a writer you don't really make games. It's bizarre.
I'm still waiting to hear where this crazy point came from: "4: Writers believe games should contain prominent writing, and judge accordingly."
All but _one_ of the winners this year had absolutely NO WRITTEN ELEMENTS WHATSOEVER -- they were all pure gameplay, featuring little or no text beyond instructions/menu/GUI!!
The single "narrative" game was Machinarium, and even that -- though it did have a plot/story -- had absolutely no writing/language at all!
So it seems like either:
a) Writers are biased but had absolutely no effect on the voting (in which case, your argument is moot)
b) Writers are not biased (in which case, your argument is disproved)
I'd also love to hear your response to some of the other issues I raised previously, such as why there are several prominent programmers and gameplay-first evangelists on your list of "writers"..
Is there really a worthwhile distinction to be drawn between a designer writing a program in a language a computer can understand and a designer writing a document in a human language programmers can understand and then convert to a computer language?
For someone who wishes respondents to your post not simply dismiss your "point," you certainly are remarkably dismissive yourself--aggressively so--in making whatever point that is.
While I'm obviously not going to disclose my specific votes one by one, as a poor misguided writer, I'm pretty sure nearly every game I voted for, if not all of them, had little to no "writing in any meaningful sense."
As far as your comments toward designers--for one thing, your classifications are mainly either inaccurate extrapolations, or simply factually incorrect. Not considering people like Kyle Gray, Soren Johnson, Jonathan Blow, Mark DeLoura, and Bryan Reynolds, among others (all technically proficient people), viable IGF judges is preposterous.
Are you so opposed to the idea of a multidisciplinary creator? Do you reserve an even higher level of scorn for those like Leonardo Da Vinci, who was not only an artist, sculptor, inventor, scientist, and musician, but--perish the thought--a writer? Should Leonardo have been disqualified from some hypothetical panel judging art or invention?
It is good that you are at least self-conscious enough to recognize that you are angry and jaded, because I can't think of any other reason you would impose upon yourself such a myopic view on this topic.
I'd also love to hear your response to some of the other issues I raised previously, such as why there are several prominent programmers and gameplay-first evangelists on your list of "writers"..
They are prominent evangelists, because they write about it, no?
I am not calling writers bad or evil. I am just calling them writers and saying that writers respect the work of other writers and are likely to like the sort of games that other writers would make.
This seems reasonable and is deemed as perfectly natural behaviour. You like what you like because that is who you are.
From a perspective of someone who pays close attention to what games are released on a daily basis, the listed IGF winners and finalists did not seem to differ from the usual list of games created and released everyday, ie. not the cream of the crop. That is, until I noticed that at least 42% of the judges were writers/journalists and many more were their writer chums. Then it all made perfect sense. This is a chance for writers to showcase other writers' games.
So I made that observation.
You can tell me there is no problem but there is a fair bit of criticism from other sources. I am just pointing at what I suspect the route cause to be so that it might be countered without having to redefine the meaning of the word, "innovative".
I suggest cutting back on the jurnos. They already have a place to voice their opinion and consider the problems of cliquey feedback from including past winners.
I'd be curious, Kriss, if you would mind listing a few of the great independent games that you thought should have been included but weren't. Are there great games that you thought were unfairly overlooked, or do you just have an axe to grind? I'd personally love to hear about some of the great overlooked indie games, if you've got some particular ones in mind.
If I wanted to write a book, I would write a book. It is *much* easier to write a book than develop a game.
Wait, so despite the fact that I program and design games, and went to school for COMPUTER SCIENCE, I am a writer? Because I write some blog posts and some articles sometimes? Wait, am I a writer because I am posting here in the comments?
Hey Kriss, doesn't the fact that you wrote this Gamasutra piece, by your own logic, make you a writer, and the fact that you're a writer means your opinion on what-games-are-good is therefore not to be trusted? Why then should we listen to you?
P.S. For what it's worth, I voted for Blueberry Garden for the grand prize. A game which, you'll note, had no text. As Raigan points out, most of the finalists had minimal text or narrative. Where did the idea of this blog post even come from, and did it check in with reality at any time? Why am I even spending the time to comment on it? God, I don't know.
Please sheathe your contempt for journalists. You're swinging wildly. The comment that you wrote in which you said you would only respect a journalist if they "personally saved from starvation by promoting their work" not only suggested to me that you want journalists to be little more than cheerleaders but made me consider holding you to a similarly extreme standard. Shall I only respect you as a game developer if you make a game that balances the budget in my hometown?
May I remind you that circular reasoning is circular.
I would also say that I initially made a little game as a response to the IGF nominations, games are my medium of choice after all, writing is not.
Let me try and explain in a different way.
What indie, seems to really mean in indie games, is games that the games journalists can package in a non threatening way to real journalists who will then write about them. This makes the games journalists overjoyed that the real journalists are finally paying a small amount of attention to them.
This seems very backwards at a time when this old media is dying and losing ground to games. Why should games feel the need to beg for this legitimacy from these writers? We can and should be defining ourselves, with our own rules, not looking for old media to tell us we are doing the right thing. This is one of the reasons I point to a writers investment in writing as a possible problem here.
Am I wrong in these regards? I'm not calling writers anything other than people who have a lot of respect for other writers and questioning if this is a good idea when it comes to judging a competing media.
As to the winner you voted for, well I don't really want to talk about it since it is still not available so I don't feel I should comment without experiencing it. Like many IGF award winners, it seems their idea is far more important than their physical existence.
One thing I did just happen to notice however, is that one of the judges, Ian Bogost, is thanked as a tester for Between. How nice for one of your beta testers to be on the judging panel.
I would have to disagree with the argument. Labeling game designers as disgruntled writers just doesn't make sense overall. Sure there may be a few people who have started in journalism and ended up developing but overall it is not what happens, nor what their goals are going in. I write for a gaming blog (small, yes but the point remains) and I got into it to be able to write about something I love and share my views with the gaming community, not to try and sneak my way into game development.
I think if someone's goal was to get into development by becoming a game journalist they would likely fail. Their stories would suffer because they aren't really in "it" for the writing, but as a means to get to their "end" of being a developer. In order to be a game journalist you must love games, and want to write about them. Trying to use it as a way to get into a development company would A) be extremely tiresome, and B) would fail because the standard of writing most journalists hold themselves to would not be there because they wouldn't really consider themselves as a "journalist."
I also agree with the above that in using your own point of the story you have roped yourself into the writer category. What makes games so different from say movies? Is Ebert still trying to get into movie production by reviewing movies?
I find it absolutely bizarre that you are assuming that these people are their profession and are all cut from the same cloth. You are also assuming they are tainted in numerous ways which automatically negates their integrity. Like Ian being automatically biased because he was a tester, which, as most testers will at-test (har har) their experience does quite the opposite of endear them to the game.
While I agree with you undermining the IGF, that's fair game, I disagree with you removing the gaming enthusiast from the journalist, and also removing the human being from the writer.
A writer can enjoy a painting just as much as an artist can appreciate good narrative.
I really think you need to look at the whole picture as most of your points are short-sighted or conjecture. You seem very set-in-your-ways and that's a very bad place to be.
Sometimes the idea is more important than the physical product.
No, stephen. I would like YOU to pay as much respect to this random developer, whom I found in five minutes via google whilst googling you, as he is forced to respect you due to your socially awarded power and influence. That is what I would like you to do.
Read that post and digest the fillings of forelock tugging and needy desperation, do you think that is respect?
Or is it fear?
And that is his response to your GOOD review.
Do you really feel you deserve this?
Maybe you are well on your way to the artistic director role at some large developer house so the years of chumming along in the sewer, with other games journalists, can be put to good use?
Maybe you are one of the good guys. Maybe it doesn't matter. Again, look at how that developer is treating you and take a good look around at your jurno chums. Do you not feel ashamed? Shouldn't you feel ashamed?
The lack of respect for you, purely on the grounds that you are a games journalist, is well founded and I stand by it. But that's all it is. The lack of respect for you as a games journalist and its just a starting point, you can easily earn my respect as a human.
Journalists are just the cool kids with a lot of friends. Like the alpha users in social networks, they are shown fear and respect for these reasons and these reasons alone.
Finally, I would like to thank you for responding to me here rather than discussing about the blog post with your friends and however many hundred thousand twitter readers you have behind my back.
Now tell me why I should respect the other journalists who have decided to do just that?
I'm still curious as to your thoughts on some of the great minds in human history--Leonardo, Einstein, Galileo, Newton, etc.--and whether their extensive habit of writing clouded their expertise or judgment in areas such as art, science, music, engineering, and so on.
While I am clearly not trying to compare anyone to those individuals, I think it is worth noting that if such giants in those aforementioned fields found worth in writing (and doing so at great length), it is hard for me to take seriously your claim that those who consider writing valuable must do so at the expense of other areas.
Furthermore, your challenge--or whatever it is--to Stephen is preposterous. If anyone is being disrespectful to developers here, it's you. You are simply declaring this person is "afraid" of the power of game journalists. You apparently just deem that to be so. You're phrasing it as a question, but you have not demonstrated a single bit of genuine open-mindedness on any of these topics so I would be very surprised if you actually intended it as a question.
Speaking of what people "deserve," what do you deserve exactly? What gives you the amazing perspective and understanding of what lies deep within the hearts of journalists, designers, and other developers to decide who deserves what, and who thinks what about whom?
If you already declare yourself to have no respect for an entire profession, based on no other factors whatsoever, I struggle to determine why somebody would actually care to earn your respect as a human. Can you give me any reasons why they would? That is, in fact, a genuine question--I would actually like to know what you think it is that makes you such an incredible judge of human character, and of the necessity of particular individuals.
Chris: I don't think Kriss' problem here isn't writing per se.
Been lurking on this for a few days, but what Kriss is missing and fearful of is what writing actually *is*. Writing's just thinking, put down in a string of words so other people can follow your working. It's not a big deal. It's a human tool. That you can use writing no more makes someone a writer than my ability to run makes me a runner. All that matters is that tool gets you to where you want to go.
Writing is about thinking, and Kriss' problem is that he thinks there's a bias towards the product of thinking - *ideas* - rather than anything else. As in, a bias towards stuff which can be discussed out of context of the game rather than something impossible to articulate. It's an anti-theory, anti-intellectual argument.
I think, if you wanted, you could make that argument. If you compare the list of games the IGF selects, it leans a certain way. If you see the list of other indie-awards - say, ModDB's gamer's awards - it leans another. The IGF definitely favours idea-rich games. The reason why I linked to him from the Sunday Papers was because I think that *is* worth considering, even if you're happy to reject it.
I think he could have phrased it a lot better, but he's both ignorant (As in, he doesn't know that classifying some of the people he has as primarily writers is ludicrous) and deeply prejudiced (the fear of writing, of design, of Jonathan Blow). But the point is there, buried.
(The Games journalist hate's easy to dismiss. Someone hates games journalist on internet. Oh no, what are we going to do.)
I wasn't going to comment at all on this inane post, but I feel obliged to answer this:
One thing I did just happen to notice however, is that one of the judges, Ian Bogost, is thanked as a tester for Between. How nice for one of your beta testers to be on the judging panel.
Special thanks: To Kyle Pulver, Ian Bogost, Anthony Burch, and Matthew Diamond for help with testing
Not only did I not draw Between as a game to judge in the IGF, had I done I would have recused myself from judging it for precisely this reason. Using this forum to demonstrate your own ignorance is fine with me. Using it for libel is not.
You know what else, I wrote an article about Between game as well. There I go again, writing words and invalidating myself as a competent judge of games.
**WARNING: Lots of writing. You may not like it.**
Wow, never read this since today. This post should be renamed "Feeding the Troll: The Festival".
Since this post will be online for the world to see until Gamasutra goes down, and it had the voice of people that are way more relevant to this industry than you and I will ever be, and since they (of course) didn't have the time to carefully read and deconstruct your trolling, I decided to make my contribution - like a big troll-sized cake in the end of the troll-feeding festival. It's christmas and I'm bored, so don't judge.
Let's start with your opening punch: "There is no secret that developers have no respect for games journalists, I personally consider them mostly useless and barely removed from the audience". You know when a troll is a pro when they start an article with a move like this. You are a pro, and I salute you. First of all, if you say something like "there is no secret", it means that it is publicly known information, and accepted as mostly true. Like "there is no secret that artists and programmers tend to resolve problems in different ways", which is an accepted way of thinking in this industry (not that it is always true, and not that anything is always true, ever). Bottomline: NO, it is -NOT- accepted that "developers have no respect for games journalists". Specially when you are talking about the indie scene. The vast majority of indie games would never EVER turn a profit if it wasn't for the work of game journalists, that allow them to market their games to their audience without a publisher with a gigantic marketing budget. Usually the budget is ZERO. Thanks to the useless journalists.
And as you personally consider them "mostly useless", which is the retarded opinion of a retard, it would be retarded of me to try and argue opinions with someone that has retarded characteristics. So I will stick with what is used as "reasoning" and "fact", and not "personal opinions". Because your personal opinions are retarded. But that's just my personal opinion.
Now let's proceed with your "reasoning". Yes, the film industry as a whole still has issues with animation being on the same tier as "proper" movies. Not that films have anything to do with games, but let's move on. You then make your low-move and state that "one very simple reason for this is that many of the judges are actors". Now, this is highly debatable. It is not a widely accepted argument like the animation/live-action one. Also, your claim is supported by two pillars: the majority of actors as judges in main awards and their hatred of animation because IT KILLS THEIR JOBS. The first one could be put down with "mildly investigative journalism". The Academy, as far as I know, is composed of a big mix of actors, producers, directors and even writers! Other important awards are judged by the press! Oh my, what this world has come to? Anyway this has absolutely nothing to do with videogames.
The spectacular conclusion to your "reasoning"? Since (not really, but let's pretend it is) actors believe films should contain prominent actors, and judge accordingly, then (of course!) "writers believe games should contain prominent writing, and judge accordingly". Pardon the sarcasm of my whole reply, but this is honest: you are a fucking genious of trolling.
Now, why don't we let this sink for a moment? Let's just pretend, for love of debate, that your ridiculous claim is real. Yes! From now on, WRITERS, as you put them, shall not be allowed to judge games (but only writers, because if programmers or artists or designers were to judge games, they would NOT judge based on their respective disciplines).
In the next section, you provide us with the tool to do just that: you say writers are members of an "old media". "Writing" can not possibly be considered media. You must be talking about literature! Yes, that "old" thing. Or maybe, even more modernly, professional writing for movies or comics or something like that. That must be the only way to describe a "writer", because the only other option, by YOUR reasoning, would be considering all people that express themselves with words to be "writers". Which includes me, you, and quite possibly every game developer that is alive - since it is an activity that more or less require people to be literate, does it not?
So, in order to be a member of the "writing media", people have to have at least one published book ("killing trees", like you did with those GBA games you are credited in - alas, which production do you think is more harmful to the environment? A book or a gameboy advance cartridge and its plastic casing?). Or published movie, or comic book. Let's review your list with simple Amazon and IMBD searches applied to it. Oh, and let's just call them all "books", for they all involve the use of words, hence should be burned.
Jonathan Blow - Number of Published Books: 0
* Ian Bogost - Number of Published Books: 4
Raigan Burns - Number of Published Books: 0
Tom Buscaglia - Number of Published Books: 0
Russell Carroll - Number of Published Books: 0
Heather Chaplin - Number of Published Books: 0
Jamie Cheng - Number of Published Books: 0
Mark Cooke - Number of Published Books: 0
Brian Crecente - Number of Published Books: 0
N'Gai Croal - Number of Published Books: 0
Mark DeLoura - Number of Published Books: 0
Phil Fish - Number of Published Books: 0
Kyle Gabler - Number of Published Books: 0
* Kieron Gillen - Number of Published Books: a lot of comics!
Chaim Gingold - Number of Published Books: 0
Chris Grant - Number of Published Books: 0
Kyle Gray - Number of Published Books: 0
Alec Holowka - Number of Published Books: 0
Rod Humble - Number of Published Books: 0
Soren Johnson - Number of Published Books: 0
Chris Kohler - Number of Published Books: 0
Dave Kosak - Number of Published Books: 0
Elan Lee - Number of Published Books: 0
Tony Mott - Number of Published Books: 0
Petri Purho - Number of Published Books: 0
Chris Rausch - Number of Published Books: 0
Chris Remo - Number of Published Books: 0
Brian Reynolds - Number of Published Books: 0
Brian Robbins - Number of Published Books: 0
Sam Roberts - Number of Published Books: 0
Margaret Robertson - Number of Published Books: 0
* Jim Rossignol - Number of Published Books: 1
Andy Schatz - Number of Published Books: 0
Kellee Santiago - Number of Published Books: 0
Mare Sheppard - Number of Published Books: 0
Steve Swink - Number of Published Books: 0
Stephen Totilo - Number of Published Books: 0
Tim W. - Number of Published Books: 0
Matthew Wegner - Number of Published Books: 0
Mick West - Number of Published Books: 0
Don Wurster, Gastronaut Studios - Number of Published Books: 0
Derek Yu - Number of Published Books: 0
Interestingly enough, our new and more appropriate list now includes only THREE "writers". That's not a lot, now, is it? Pardon if I missed someone, I used investigative journalism just "mildly", like you did. And two of them write about VIDEOGAMES. If a programmer ever writes a book on Python, or an artist ever writes a book on Composition, are they writers now? Hum...
(Also, the last remaining writer is Kieron Gillen. He writes comics. "Real" writers laugh at him and point the finger at him and pull down his trousers and make him go home and cry about it).
Now let's talk about the main offender of your "arguments": the chosen games that "speak for themselves". Most of these games have NO WRITING to speak of! That's right! Imagine that! Blueberry Garden (the big winner), Osmos, Machinarium and some others are games that don't actually need any text at all! Now that's a funny fact.
And to close off the deal, let's take on your challenge (in behalf of Jonathan Blow) and "communicate this fact to you without using words".
Here is the link to the communication: (NSFW) http://www.flickr.com/photos/57350156@N03/5283585456/
For anyone not inclined to look at it, it is a drawing of Blow fucking Kriss's mother's ass instead of writing. Or it could be a kinky version of Kriss. Or it could be about the dicotomy between love and knowledge. It's really deep stuff, as just things without words can be.
So there you have it. I trolled you. With words. And a drawing. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to cry? Are you going to cry a little?
PS: You are a dumb person and should kill yourself. That's my personal opinion. You can't disagree with personal opinions, ever. I personally think that you are useless for anything other than trolling (you are actually pretty great at trolling, but so am I). The opinions of my personal person tell me that your death should make you a more intelligent human being. Also, you embarrass Gamasutra with your consistently high level of dumb.
PS2: Also, why the FUCK would guys such as Soren Johnson and Derek Yu, even by your retarded non-existant logic, be considered writers?
PS3: Your argument would be a lot more straightforward if you just said "jornalists R the sux0rs and IGF 2 LOLZ". You ended up using a lot of words for someone that despises writing, literacy, intelligence and knowledge overall (but that's just my personal opinion!).
Also, if you really think game design has anything to do with writing, you are even more of an idiot than you seem to be. And that's a fucking achievement if I ever saw one.
And I would like to see that "little game" you made "as a response to the IGF nominees". You sure look like someone that can express oneself with game-making. Don't worry, I'm not going to judge it, since my last post must qualify me as a "writer" (or a frustrated one, since I'm a designer).
Not even counting Mick West (who was programming columnist for Game Developer magazine for a number of years), I see: Derek Yu, Brian Reynolds, Soren Johnson, Kyle Gray, Chaim Gingold, Mark DeLoura, Ian Bogost, and Jon Blow. Pretty sure all of those guys, while they may have done design as well, are also technically proficient. Jon coded Braid, etcetera.
Anyhow, I only count 13 of the 42 that I would explicitly and solely consider journalists, FWIW - and two of those (Margaret and N'Gai) also work with developers nowadays. Our intention, as much as we had one, was to have roughly 1/3rd of the judges be indie-friendly journalists and the remainder split between the mainstream and indie game industries. We'll be expanding the judge pool further this year, and we hope to keep that kind of ratio in place.
- Simon (Gamasutra publisher, IGF Chairman.)
Also note that it's not only about journalism. It's about writing. It could be a book deal to write a very technical book about game design, but that book deal could be enough to move them out of game making, if they're interested in it at all. What I'm understanding from Kriss is that people with vested interest in telling others what to do and how to do it aren't the best candidates for picking excellent games, because their choices are likely to advance their views of what should be, rather than rewarding the excellence of what is. (Kriss, please tell me off if I'm off.)
That philosophy would seem to lead to "You Have to Burn the Rope" being a nominee for an award in innovation - there's nothing in it that's innovative to games, but plenty that people think should be in innovative games. I'm still curious about what games couldn't surpass Rope for a nomination in that category, and if it was worth it to ignore those games and their creators in favor of making a statement by nominating Rope.
I'm not totally agreeing with Kriss' points, but I do think there's some validity to them, and it's good to see someone bring it up. Members of the media will pick and promote games they like anyway through the very media that make them relevant enough to be invited to the judges' panel. What do journalists bring to the debate in choosing who wins, and how does their participation improve the credibility of the awards?
I suspect designers of being primarily writers, all designers need to be at least mild programmers or they are not very good designers. But to take on the role of designer, you are a writer at heart, if your other talents are strong you would get sidetracked into using them.
IE I'm certain mr blow would be happier with a nice book deal, much much happier, possibly even involving poetry, yes I think that would make him much happier.
I also suspect my definition of technically proficient is on a somewhat different scale to yours but don't worry I realise my standards are far too high and sure plenty of people bolded also have technical or artistic ability as well as an interest in writing.
Anyway, you want to take it down to 13. I would disagree but no matter, that is still a sizeable chunk. Now tell me, why do you need to include any journalist at all?
Shouldn't they already be doing their damnedest to find and promote games they see as worth promoting? If not, why not and what is their main role? Repeating what other people say only with a snarky comment? Complaining about the lack of originality of mainstream games? Baiting the audience for web traffic? Calling japanese slave developers lazy for not creating content faster than they can play them? Compiling top ten lists of video babes in between writing essays on how to fix video game journalism?
Journalists have the same career plans as actors; do work that creates self publicity and this face time causes success. There is a history of journalists sidling into the games industry and ending up being creative directors (again game designers=writer), its one of those career paths like moving up from tester to producer.
Not all journalists end up as creative directors, but hey, not all testers end up as producers.
So saying this journalist is now working with a game developer does not mean anything, except that they have been successful in promoting themselves. If you want me to respect a journalist, show me the developer they personally saved from starvation by promoting their work more than they promote themselves.
I do not care if the developer is indie, that does not mean anything. Just show me that they care more about promoting the games that they believe in than they do about promoting themselves and their writing talents and possibly that of writers within the games industry.
Please do not misconstrue my opinions as hating writers. I want good writers to work within the games industry. I want good journalism. I am happy to collaborate with writers. What I am not so keen on is my media of choice being judged by people heavily invested in another form of media that may not be compatible.
Imagine writing a book and then finding the only thing that seems to really matter is the cover art or which font it was typesetted in.
First off, it is a valid point to recognize the obvious 'journalistic influence' the panel of IGF judges hold over the event because this factor alone will obviously yield different results than a panel consisting of say, only designers, programmers or producers would.
Second, I think you have to take this point at face value... This is a gaming festival created and held by gaming journalists. While the panel (and event coordinators) may mostly consist of journalists this is not necessarily a negative aspect, it simply means that a writers opinion is more likely to be stated. The big question is how should the gaming community as a WHOLE see this event? Should it be taken as seriously because it is decided by gaming journalists? People who no doubt have dedicated a ton of energy to the cause of critiquing and observing games but not necessarily having anything to do with the actual development.
I personally believe it would be wonderful (and fair) to see a diverse variety of industry 'professionals' as well as the hopefuls on and off the judging panel.
...Like they say, it takes all kinds.
-Thanks
Oh yeah - and in response to the above poster's opinion, "all designers need to be at least mild programmers or they are not very good designers." COMPLETELY unfounded... As a designer AND artist (not programmer) your opinion comes across as blatantly ignorant, FYI.
Also, Maxwell - re: 'this is a gaming festival created and held by gaming journalists' - to be fair, I was a game developer for about 8 years or so at companies including Kuju and Infogrames/Accolade (albeit not a technical one, so Kriss will hate me!), and Think Services Game Group's Kathy Schoback is a veteran of Sega and Ageia, among others. So I think, again, we have a good balance of perspectives.
Some examples:
Blow is the biggest mistake on the list -- he's one of the most stereotypical hardcore programmers I've ever met! AFAIK his lengthy games career is all programming contracts, I don't think he's ever written anything aside from the slides to presentations. This is borderline ridiculous, it just seems like the literary aspect of Braid rubbed you the wrong way and you're reacting to that.. if you ignore the writing you're still left with an excellent game.
Derek Yu just released Spelunky, a roguelike-platformer, and an AMAZING example of perfection in terms of mechanics. As with Blow I have no idea where you got the "writer" thing from as he doesn't really write anything.. unless you count his tutorials on isometric pixel art?
Sam Roberts is another person I can vouch for; he does happen to be a total literature nerd but he's also a total games nerd and he's into games for their own sake. If you simply look at the Slamdance and Indiecade rosters you'll find just about a diverse selection of games as possible.
Every judge is going to have their own personal bias, for instance I could imagine that Bogost would really like a game that used the gameplay for clever rhetorical purposes. Ideally the judges are diverse enough (and the judging process robust enough) that subjective bias isn't statistically significant, and is instead lost in background noise. For every judge that may be biased towards writing and narrative-heavy exposition you'll have another (like me) who may be biased in the other direction.
Trying to lump this many judges into the same "frustrated writer" mold is not productive, and frankly putting people like Blow and Yu in this list -- people who have demonstrated a proficiency in game development and in the importance of gameplay and mechanics -- really undermines whatever point you're trying to make.
Those two would be at the _top_ of my list for indie game judges, since I know they both care about and are interested in GOOD GAMES.
That quote is also incredibly dismissive to the audience. Frankly I'd rather have my game judges by passionate gamers or journalists than a bunch of entrenched AAA industry mooks (aka "talented games industry veterans").
Blueberry Garden
Between
BrainPipe
Cortex Command
Musaic Box
Tag
Osmos
Machinarium
Yes, that's right -- out of all the winners, NONE of them feature prominent in-game writing, and in fact only ONE of them (Machinarium) has anything even remotely resembling a plot or narrative -- and in that case it's completely presented visually through non-verbal exposition!
I would argue that the problem with your blog post isn't that it's badly written, it's that it's cataclysmically, almost comically poorly thought-out.
That's a pretty ludicrous claim to make. As a developer, I actually do respect and enjoy talking to journalists. As far as the professional relationship between developers and journalists, I actually consider journalists to be a sect of forgiving gamers to whom a game I make should appeal to the same. Ideally, journalists will go through more effort to get games to work, spend more time with a game whether they like it or not, and actually devote some real thought to their opinion on a game amidst the rest of the commercial offerings. Journalists may not have the mindset of a developer or designer, but as gamers journalists are typically far more well-versed in the current gaming offerings and, as such, as probably in a better place to judge games than most of the developers I know.
I think your topic could have been an interesting one, but you seem to be more angry and jaded than constructively argumentative.
Yes pretty much, sorry if I phrased anything too aggressively, but really I am not a writer and I dislike spending my time writing when I have so many other things to be done.
Your profile exclaims how much you like to write, so yes you like journalists and yes you have decided to side with other writers, they are the good guys, they share your opinions.
Isn't that my point?
I am angry and jaded, it is preferable to being burnt out, yet I would remind you that I am still creatively active and hopeful so please do not paint me as negative fool doing nothing but complaining.
Consider it an alternative viewpoint and try not to dismiss it.
(fyi, I'm actually a programmer...)
I'm not saying that design is an act of writing, I'm saying designers tend to be writers who end up with jobs as game designers.
I am well aware of what designers do.
This is just a personal observation, feel free to discount it.
Sorry, I wasn't too sure about you, I ended up thinking, ah if they have chosen the designer label then they probably veer towards being a writer.
Although if you do spend any time trying to write fiction maybe I am right :)
But that's all you are doing. You're not providing a thought-provoking complaint in anything but the high-concept of your article, you aren't making any well-argued points, and you don't even seem to present a consistent perspective other than "people that write are bad."
No. They aren't. Maybe some are, but most are not. I really don't understand this obsession with if you are a writer you don't really make games. It's bizarre.
All but _one_ of the winners this year had absolutely NO WRITTEN ELEMENTS WHATSOEVER -- they were all pure gameplay, featuring little or no text beyond instructions/menu/GUI!!
The single "narrative" game was Machinarium, and even that -- though it did have a plot/story -- had absolutely no writing/language at all!
So it seems like either:
a) Writers are biased but had absolutely no effect on the voting (in which case, your argument is moot)
b) Writers are not biased (in which case, your argument is disproved)
I'd also love to hear your response to some of the other issues I raised previously, such as why there are several prominent programmers and gameplay-first evangelists on your list of "writers"..
For someone who wishes respondents to your post not simply dismiss your "point," you certainly are remarkably dismissive yourself--aggressively so--in making whatever point that is.
While I'm obviously not going to disclose my specific votes one by one, as a poor misguided writer, I'm pretty sure nearly every game I voted for, if not all of them, had little to no "writing in any meaningful sense."
As far as your comments toward designers--for one thing, your classifications are mainly either inaccurate extrapolations, or simply factually incorrect. Not considering people like Kyle Gray, Soren Johnson, Jonathan Blow, Mark DeLoura, and Bryan Reynolds, among others (all technically proficient people), viable IGF judges is preposterous.
Are you so opposed to the idea of a multidisciplinary creator? Do you reserve an even higher level of scorn for those like Leonardo Da Vinci, who was not only an artist, sculptor, inventor, scientist, and musician, but--perish the thought--a writer? Should Leonardo have been disqualified from some hypothetical panel judging art or invention?
It is good that you are at least self-conscious enough to recognize that you are angry and jaded, because I can't think of any other reason you would impose upon yourself such a myopic view on this topic.
I'd also love to hear your response to some of the other issues I raised previously, such as why there are several prominent programmers and gameplay-first evangelists on your list of "writers"..
They are prominent evangelists, because they write about it, no?
This seems reasonable and is deemed as perfectly natural behaviour. You like what you like because that is who you are.
From a perspective of someone who pays close attention to what games are released on a daily basis, the listed IGF winners and finalists did not seem to differ from the usual list of games created and released everyday, ie. not the cream of the crop. That is, until I noticed that at least 42% of the judges were writers/journalists and many more were their writer chums. Then it all made perfect sense. This is a chance for writers to showcase other writers' games.
So I made that observation.
You can tell me there is no problem but there is a fair bit of criticism from other sources. I am just pointing at what I suspect the route cause to be so that it might be countered without having to redefine the meaning of the word, "innovative".
I suggest cutting back on the jurnos. They already have a place to voice their opinion and consider the problems of cliquey feedback from including past winners.
Is that constructive?
Wait, so despite the fact that I program and design games, and went to school for COMPUTER SCIENCE, I am a writer? Because I write some blog posts and some articles sometimes? Wait, am I a writer because I am posting here in the comments?
Hey Kriss, doesn't the fact that you wrote this Gamasutra piece, by your own logic, make you a writer, and the fact that you're a writer means your opinion on what-games-are-good is therefore not to be trusted? Why then should we listen to you?
Please sheathe your contempt for journalists. You're swinging wildly. The comment that you wrote in which you said you would only respect a journalist if they "personally saved from starvation by promoting their work" not only suggested to me that you want journalists to be little more than cheerleaders but made me consider holding you to a similarly extreme standard. Shall I only respect you as a game developer if you make a game that balances the budget in my hometown?
May I remind you that circular reasoning is circular.
I would also say that I initially made a little game as a response to the IGF nominations, games are my medium of choice after all, writing is not.
Let me try and explain in a different way.
What indie, seems to really mean in indie games, is games that the games journalists can package in a non threatening way to real journalists who will then write about them. This makes the games journalists overjoyed that the real journalists are finally paying a small amount of attention to them.
This seems very backwards at a time when this old media is dying and losing ground to games. Why should games feel the need to beg for this legitimacy from these writers? We can and should be defining ourselves, with our own rules, not looking for old media to tell us we are doing the right thing. This is one of the reasons I point to a writers investment in writing as a possible problem here.
Am I wrong in these regards? I'm not calling writers anything other than people who have a lot of respect for other writers and questioning if this is a good idea when it comes to judging a competing media.
As to the winner you voted for, well I don't really want to talk about it since it is still not available so I don't feel I should comment without experiencing it. Like many IGF award winners, it seems their idea is far more important than their physical existence.
One thing I did just happen to notice however, is that one of the judges, Ian Bogost, is thanked as a tester for Between. How nice for one of your beta testers to be on the judging panel.
http://www.esquire.com/features/best-and-brightest-2008/rohrer-game
Special thanks: To Kyle Pulver, Ian Bogost, Anthony Burch, and Matthew Diamond for help with testing
I think if someone's goal was to get into development by becoming a game journalist they would likely fail. Their stories would suffer because they aren't really in "it" for the writing, but as a means to get to their "end" of being a developer. In order to be a game journalist you must love games, and want to write about them. Trying to use it as a way to get into a development company would A) be extremely tiresome, and B) would fail because the standard of writing most journalists hold themselves to would not be there because they wouldn't really consider themselves as a "journalist."
I also agree with the above that in using your own point of the story you have roped yourself into the writer category. What makes games so different from say movies? Is Ebert still trying to get into movie production by reviewing movies?
While I agree with you undermining the IGF, that's fair game, I disagree with you removing the gaming enthusiast from the journalist, and also removing the human being from the writer.
A writer can enjoy a painting just as much as an artist can appreciate good narrative.
I really think you need to look at the whole picture as most of your points are short-sighted or conjecture. You seem very set-in-your-ways and that's a very bad place to be.
Sometimes the idea is more important than the physical product.
No, stephen. I would like YOU to pay as much respect to this random developer, whom I found in five minutes via google whilst googling you, as he is forced to respect you due to your socially awarded power and influence. That is what I would like you to do.
http://toomuchimagination.blogspot.com/2008/12/stephen-totilo-on-pop-ending.html
Read that post and digest the fillings of forelock tugging and needy desperation, do you think that is respect?
Or is it fear?
And that is his response to your GOOD review.
Do you really feel you deserve this?
Maybe you are well on your way to the artistic director role at some large developer house so the years of chumming along in the sewer, with other games journalists, can be put to good use?
Maybe you are one of the good guys. Maybe it doesn't matter. Again, look at how that developer is treating you and take a good look around at your jurno chums. Do you not feel ashamed? Shouldn't you feel ashamed?
The lack of respect for you, purely on the grounds that you are a games journalist, is well founded and I stand by it. But that's all it is. The lack of respect for you as a games journalist and its just a starting point, you can easily earn my respect as a human.
Journalists are just the cool kids with a lot of friends. Like the alpha users in social networks, they are shown fear and respect for these reasons and these reasons alone.
Finally, I would like to thank you for responding to me here rather than discussing about the blog post with your friends and however many hundred thousand twitter readers you have behind my back.
Now tell me why I should respect the other journalists who have decided to do just that?
I'm still curious as to your thoughts on some of the great minds in human history--Leonardo, Einstein, Galileo, Newton, etc.--and whether their extensive habit of writing clouded their expertise or judgment in areas such as art, science, music, engineering, and so on.
While I am clearly not trying to compare anyone to those individuals, I think it is worth noting that if such giants in those aforementioned fields found worth in writing (and doing so at great length), it is hard for me to take seriously your claim that those who consider writing valuable must do so at the expense of other areas.
Furthermore, your challenge--or whatever it is--to Stephen is preposterous. If anyone is being disrespectful to developers here, it's you. You are simply declaring this person is "afraid" of the power of game journalists. You apparently just deem that to be so. You're phrasing it as a question, but you have not demonstrated a single bit of genuine open-mindedness on any of these topics so I would be very surprised if you actually intended it as a question.
Speaking of what people "deserve," what do you deserve exactly? What gives you the amazing perspective and understanding of what lies deep within the hearts of journalists, designers, and other developers to decide who deserves what, and who thinks what about whom?
If you already declare yourself to have no respect for an entire profession, based on no other factors whatsoever, I struggle to determine why somebody would actually care to earn your respect as a human. Can you give me any reasons why they would? That is, in fact, a genuine question--I would actually like to know what you think it is that makes you such an incredible judge of human character, and of the necessity of particular individuals.
Been lurking on this for a few days, but what Kriss is missing and fearful of is what writing actually *is*. Writing's just thinking, put down in a string of words so other people can follow your working. It's not a big deal. It's a human tool. That you can use writing no more makes someone a writer than my ability to run makes me a runner. All that matters is that tool gets you to where you want to go.
Writing is about thinking, and Kriss' problem is that he thinks there's a bias towards the product of thinking - *ideas* - rather than anything else. As in, a bias towards stuff which can be discussed out of context of the game rather than something impossible to articulate. It's an anti-theory, anti-intellectual argument.
I think, if you wanted, you could make that argument. If you compare the list of games the IGF selects, it leans a certain way. If you see the list of other indie-awards - say, ModDB's gamer's awards - it leans another. The IGF definitely favours idea-rich games. The reason why I linked to him from the Sunday Papers was because I think that *is* worth considering, even if you're happy to reject it.
I think he could have phrased it a lot better, but he's both ignorant (As in, he doesn't know that classifying some of the people he has as primarily writers is ludicrous) and deeply prejudiced (the fear of writing, of design, of Jonathan Blow). But the point is there, buried.
(The Games journalist hate's easy to dismiss. Someone hates games journalist on internet. Oh no, what are we going to do.)
KG
One thing I did just happen to notice however, is that one of the judges, Ian Bogost, is thanked as a tester for Between. How nice for one of your beta testers to be on the judging panel.
http://www.esquire.com/features/best-and-brightest-2008/rohrer-game
Special thanks: To Kyle Pulver, Ian Bogost, Anthony Burch, and Matthew Diamond for help with testing
Not only did I not draw Between as a game to judge in the IGF, had I done I would have recused myself from judging it for precisely this reason. Using this forum to demonstrate your own ignorance is fine with me. Using it for libel is not.
You know what else, I wrote an article about Between game as well. There I go again, writing words and invalidating myself as a competent judge of games.
Wow, never read this since today. This post should be renamed "Feeding the Troll: The Festival".
Since this post will be online for the world to see until Gamasutra goes down, and it had the voice of people that are way more relevant to this industry than you and I will ever be, and since they (of course) didn't have the time to carefully read and deconstruct your trolling, I decided to make my contribution - like a big troll-sized cake in the end of the troll-feeding festival. It's christmas and I'm bored, so don't judge.
Let's start with your opening punch: "There is no secret that developers have no respect for games journalists, I personally consider them mostly useless and barely removed from the audience". You know when a troll is a pro when they start an article with a move like this. You are a pro, and I salute you. First of all, if you say something like "there is no secret", it means that it is publicly known information, and accepted as mostly true. Like "there is no secret that artists and programmers tend to resolve problems in different ways", which is an accepted way of thinking in this industry (not that it is always true, and not that anything is always true, ever). Bottomline: NO, it is -NOT- accepted that "developers have no respect for games journalists". Specially when you are talking about the indie scene. The vast majority of indie games would never EVER turn a profit if it wasn't for the work of game journalists, that allow them to market their games to their audience without a publisher with a gigantic marketing budget. Usually the budget is ZERO. Thanks to the useless journalists.
And as you personally consider them "mostly useless", which is the retarded opinion of a retard, it would be retarded of me to try and argue opinions with someone that has retarded characteristics. So I will stick with what is used as "reasoning" and "fact", and not "personal opinions". Because your personal opinions are retarded. But that's just my personal opinion.
Now let's proceed with your "reasoning". Yes, the film industry as a whole still has issues with animation being on the same tier as "proper" movies. Not that films have anything to do with games, but let's move on. You then make your low-move and state that "one very simple reason for this is that many of the judges are actors". Now, this is highly debatable. It is not a widely accepted argument like the animation/live-action one. Also, your claim is supported by two pillars: the majority of actors as judges in main awards and their hatred of animation because IT KILLS THEIR JOBS. The first one could be put down with "mildly investigative journalism". The Academy, as far as I know, is composed of a big mix of actors, producers, directors and even writers! Other important awards are judged by the press! Oh my, what this world has come to? Anyway this has absolutely nothing to do with videogames.
The spectacular conclusion to your "reasoning"? Since (not really, but let's pretend it is) actors believe films should contain prominent actors, and judge accordingly, then (of course!) "writers believe games should contain prominent writing, and judge accordingly". Pardon the sarcasm of my whole reply, but this is honest: you are a fucking genious of trolling.
Now, why don't we let this sink for a moment? Let's just pretend, for love of debate, that your ridiculous claim is real. Yes! From now on, WRITERS, as you put them, shall not be allowed to judge games (but only writers, because if programmers or artists or designers were to judge games, they would NOT judge based on their respective disciplines).
In the next section, you provide us with the tool to do just that: you say writers are members of an "old media". "Writing" can not possibly be considered media. You must be talking about literature! Yes, that "old" thing. Or maybe, even more modernly, professional writing for movies or comics or something like that. That must be the only way to describe a "writer", because the only other option, by YOUR reasoning, would be considering all people that express themselves with words to be "writers". Which includes me, you, and quite possibly every game developer that is alive - since it is an activity that more or less require people to be literate, does it not?
So, in order to be a member of the "writing media", people have to have at least one published book ("killing trees", like you did with those GBA games you are credited in - alas, which production do you think is more harmful to the environment? A book or a gameboy advance cartridge and its plastic casing?). Or published movie, or comic book. Let's review your list with simple Amazon and IMBD searches applied to it. Oh, and let's just call them all "books", for they all involve the use of words, hence should be burned.
Jonathan Blow - Number of Published Books: 0
* Ian Bogost - Number of Published Books: 4
Raigan Burns - Number of Published Books: 0
Tom Buscaglia - Number of Published Books: 0
Russell Carroll - Number of Published Books: 0
Heather Chaplin - Number of Published Books: 0
Jamie Cheng - Number of Published Books: 0
Mark Cooke - Number of Published Books: 0
Brian Crecente - Number of Published Books: 0
N'Gai Croal - Number of Published Books: 0
Mark DeLoura - Number of Published Books: 0
Phil Fish - Number of Published Books: 0
Kyle Gabler - Number of Published Books: 0
* Kieron Gillen - Number of Published Books: a lot of comics!
Chaim Gingold - Number of Published Books: 0
Chris Grant - Number of Published Books: 0
Kyle Gray - Number of Published Books: 0
Alec Holowka - Number of Published Books: 0
Rod Humble - Number of Published Books: 0
Soren Johnson - Number of Published Books: 0
Chris Kohler - Number of Published Books: 0
Dave Kosak - Number of Published Books: 0
Elan Lee - Number of Published Books: 0
Tony Mott - Number of Published Books: 0
Petri Purho - Number of Published Books: 0
Chris Rausch - Number of Published Books: 0
Chris Remo - Number of Published Books: 0
Brian Reynolds - Number of Published Books: 0
Brian Robbins - Number of Published Books: 0
Sam Roberts - Number of Published Books: 0
Margaret Robertson - Number of Published Books: 0
* Jim Rossignol - Number of Published Books: 1
Andy Schatz - Number of Published Books: 0
Kellee Santiago - Number of Published Books: 0
Mare Sheppard - Number of Published Books: 0
Steve Swink - Number of Published Books: 0
Stephen Totilo - Number of Published Books: 0
Tim W. - Number of Published Books: 0
Matthew Wegner - Number of Published Books: 0
Mick West - Number of Published Books: 0
Don Wurster, Gastronaut Studios - Number of Published Books: 0
Derek Yu - Number of Published Books: 0
Interestingly enough, our new and more appropriate list now includes only THREE "writers". That's not a lot, now, is it? Pardon if I missed someone, I used investigative journalism just "mildly", like you did. And two of them write about VIDEOGAMES. If a programmer ever writes a book on Python, or an artist ever writes a book on Composition, are they writers now? Hum...
(Also, the last remaining writer is Kieron Gillen. He writes comics. "Real" writers laugh at him and point the finger at him and pull down his trousers and make him go home and cry about it).
Now let's talk about the main offender of your "arguments": the chosen games that "speak for themselves". Most of these games have NO WRITING to speak of! That's right! Imagine that! Blueberry Garden (the big winner), Osmos, Machinarium and some others are games that don't actually need any text at all! Now that's a funny fact.
And to close off the deal, let's take on your challenge (in behalf of Jonathan Blow) and "communicate this fact to you without using words".
Here is the link to the communication: (NSFW) http://www.flickr.com/photos/57350156@N03/5283585456/
For anyone not inclined to look at it, it is a drawing of Blow fucking Kriss's mother's ass instead of writing. Or it could be a kinky version of Kriss. Or it could be about the dicotomy between love and knowledge. It's really deep stuff, as just things without words can be.
So there you have it. I trolled you. With words. And a drawing. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to cry? Are you going to cry a little?
PS: You are a dumb person and should kill yourself. That's my personal opinion. You can't disagree with personal opinions, ever. I personally think that you are useless for anything other than trolling (you are actually pretty great at trolling, but so am I). The opinions of my personal person tell me that your death should make you a more intelligent human being. Also, you embarrass Gamasutra with your consistently high level of dumb.
PS2: Also, why the FUCK would guys such as Soren Johnson and Derek Yu, even by your retarded non-existant logic, be considered writers?
PS3: Your argument would be a lot more straightforward if you just said "jornalists R the sux0rs and IGF 2 LOLZ". You ended up using a lot of words for someone that despises writing, literacy, intelligence and knowledge overall (but that's just my personal opinion!).
And I would like to see that "little game" you made "as a response to the IGF nominees". You sure look like someone that can express oneself with game-making. Don't worry, I'm not going to judge it, since my last post must qualify me as a "writer" (or a frustrated one, since I'm a designer).