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Here are some prevailing notions amongst developers about the Xbox Live Indie Games Channel:
- Most of the games on the marketplace are crap.
- It’s impossible to make substantial money unless you create a Minecraft clone.
- Microsoft hides the channel from its users so it can show more Doritos ads.
And yet, we at Utah Raptor Games will be launching our first game (called FAST FAST LASER LASER––check out our floundering Kickstarter campaign here), for the Xbox Live Indie Games Channel.
Are we stupid?
Maybe. Maybe not. We’ve read all the articles, so we know what we’re getting into. We’re aware of XNA’s flaws, but we think that it’s still the best possible platform for FFLL. Here’s why:
Our Game Would Suck on iPhone/iPad/PC/Mac/etc.
I’ve spoken with dozens upon dozens of developers about the thought processes behind their games, and it seems like most games come from a designer thinking about how to make something fun using the tools they have at hand. Flight Control was a result of Robert Murray trying to invent fun ways to interact with a touch screen. Halcyon came from Zach Gage’s desperation to build a simple, engaging game for the iPad.
FAST FAST LASER LASER didn’t come about that way. It was born out of our love for Bomberman ’93 and a realization that nobody is currently making games in that vein. We want to make a great competitive multiplayer game that people can play on the couch with their friends, and it just so happens that the iPhone would totally suck for that. Sure, we could slap some virtual controls on it and release it on iOS, but that’d be evil.
So mobile is out of the question, and PCs aren’t great for local, same-screen multiplayer, so consoles are the only thing that make sense for us. Given that the Wii is already a dead console in the minds of traditional gamers (our target audience) and that Playstation Minis is a bit too restrictive for our purposes, XBLIG is the only reasonable platform for FFLL. Plus, everyone who would buy a game like FFLL already owns an Xbox 360.
Ease of visibility in the marketplace
With FFLL, we’re filling a void. There aren’t any games like FFLL on the Indie Game Marketplace (or on any other distribution platform available to Xbox 360 owners, for that matter). We’re not making another shm’up, a creepy dating sim, or a side-scrolling whatever, so our hope is that people will latch onto FFLL for its originality. More than once, I’ve scrolled the XBLIG channel searching for a solid multiplayer game to play with friends. With few exceptions, there isn’t much out there.
Also, I feel confident enough to throw this out there. We have better box art than every other game on the XBLIG Marketplace.
Microsoft and the XNA Community Are A++
Lee Dubose and Jonathan Broom are handling coding duties for FAST FAST LASER LASER. I’ll let them speak to this:
“Microsoft has made almost every resource that they could available to programmers to create things on XNA. That’s what the essence of the XNA platform is––the drawing methods, the update methods, everything is designed so that we don’t have to completely reinvent the wheel. Their tutorials, code samples, and APIs have been really well done. It’s extensible to any sort of project you’re working on. For every aspect of video game programming, they have tutorials or code samples, which greatly reduces the learning curve of coding for Xbox.” – Lee Dubose
“The XNA community is also very helpful. There are a lot of devs who are willing to take the time to help you with problems that they’ve encountered before. The Creator’s Club is full of people who know what they’re doing. I lurk so hard on those forums.” – Jonathan Broom
C# Is For Cool Kids
“A language as robust as C plus added features like garbage collection (because memory allocation sucks) is exceedingly user friendly. The library is large, too. It’s very extensive. It’s an easy language to learn. I didn’t know any C# before beginning this project. Building off of my own knowledge of Java and C, I had no problem picking up C#. It’s an efficient language that’s been optimized for projects like this. In my case, I’ve also had some previous experience with Visual Studios.” – Jonathan Broom.
“Its [Visual Studio’s] enumeration abilities are fab.” – Lee Dubose.
Proportional Potential for Profitability
This one’s the most important.
We’ve seen a lot of independently reported numbers, and we know that not many XNA devs “make it big.” Luckily for us, FFLL isn’t the sort of project that needs to sell 100,000 units to be considered a success. It’s a small game; there’s no story mode, no fancy ranking system in multiplayer, and no plans for post-launch DLC of any sort. It’s a simple game based on some inventive mechanics that we think make it a really fun multiplayer game. Oh, and there’s bots.
FFLL is being built on a very restrained budget. Other than our $5,000 Kickstarter campaign (which might not be successful), it’s being funded entirely out of our own pockets.
We’ll be selling FFLL for only 240 MSP ($3). That’s a low number, but it’s a good value for what the game is. It’s low enough to ensure that people get their money’s worth, but high enough to reflect the time we’ve put into crafting FFLL into a really solid game.
With all that in mind, we’d be happy with as few as 5,000 downloads. That’s all it would take for us to consider FFLL a success. We’re believing/hoping that it will sell many more units than that, of course, but we’re trying to be reasonable about things.
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"With FFLL, we’re filling a void. There aren’t any games like FFLL on the Indie Game Marketplace (or on any other distribution platform available to Xbox 360 owners, for that matter)."
That's not true. On the cheap end, you have Explosive Gas for 80 MS points (http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/Product/Explosive-Gas/66acd000-77fe-1000-9115-
d8025855084c). On the more expensive end, you have the actual Bomberman Live for 800 MS points. As of 2009, Bomberman Live has sold over half a million copies and I imagine that number is noticeably larger today. With so much of the potential audience already owning Bomberman Live, your game is going to have to be extremely impressive to manage to persuade them to buy it when they already have a perfectly good game of that style.
"With all that in mind, we’d be happy with as few as 5,000 downloads."
5,000 sales at $3 is not a low-end estimate. If anything, that's very ambitious for a studio with their first release. Your average $3 XBLIG title from a new studio struggles to break even 500 sales with most selling only a hundred or two if that.
In general, multiplayer-centric games do very poorly on XBLIG. It's hard enough to convince one person to take a chance on a low budget game but with multiplayer games, you have to convince multiple people each time.
I agree though that relentless downwards price pressure in XBLIG (due to top downloads not being price-weighted) means that 400 MSP is effectively dead and only the very best titles can even hope to justify 240 MSP. It's ridiculous when you see the same games selling on Steam for twice that, but that's the state of the channel. I can't see a bomberman clone selling well above 80 MSP.
To be more clear, when I say "Bomberman-style game," I don't actually mean a mechanical clone of Bomberman. FFLL shares traits with Bomberman (it's in an arena, it's top-down, 2D, and competitive), but the combat mechanics are completely different.
And the game does have great multiplayer AI, so people won't have to convince others to join them in order to make a purchase. Sure, the game is way better with friends, but that's just because playing against bots isn't a social experience.
Admittedly, I'm no expert on the marketplace, but has there been much evidence out there to suggest that developers with existing XBLIG titles do any better than those without? I'd always suspected that Cthulhu Saves the World did so well because it's a great, eye-catching premise for a game, moreso than because of any preexisting fanbase that built up after the release of Breath of Death VII.
This really isn't a defense so much as a "Here's what I think is nice about the service." Which is great! Don't get me wrong, I don't think XBLIG is all that bad - I love it. It's not a huge money-making machine for many types of games, but it has strengths there.
I believe that your opinion will change a bit after about 1 week after your game's release. While I believe you might maybe hit 5k downloads of your game's trial, I do not believe you will attain 5,000 sales. I've seen very high quality games with great concepts (and box art) struggle to attain 3k in sales, even at 80 msp.
Besides few instances of MP-focused games doing well on the service, your 240 MSP price might be a great deal, and it certainly isn't a high price point in general. But on XBLIG, you're competing with a LOT of high quality games at 240 MSP and at 80 MSP. As such while you might hit 5k downloads, expect your conversion ratio to be somewhat limited.
I would also note that there is, indeed, a Bomberman game on XBLA called Bomberman Live. It sold exceptionally well and provides an outlet for this type of game on the "upper tier" of XBox Live's marketplace.
I haven't played the game, so I can't say for certain, but a 240msp a game is usually reserved for pretty high end games on the XBLIG. I've seen too many fantastic games on the XBLIG price their games at 240 only to have virtually no sales. Heck I've seen great 80msp games that haven't sold well. I would play your game and see how it matches up to other 80msp games like Explosive Gas, Little Racers Street and other fun multiplayer games. Is your game 3 times better than these games? Is it that much more attractive to the average consumer?
As much as many XBLIG feel their game is worth more than a $1 it's hard to prove that in a market that is so crowded such as the XBLIG. (For example there are a ton of $1 games on the XBLIG that I believe on a Wii or 3ds E-Shop market could easily sell for $5 dollars or more.)
For the record I'm not saying don't attempt making an XBLIG and the marketplace is terrible, but you need to understand what the market is in order to sell your game and price it properly.
Yeah, I probably should have titled the article "Why We're Putting Our Lasers In Your XBLIG."
I appreciate your honesty about the sales thing. I really hope you're wrong, but I feel like I have every reason to believe you. How did your games do, first week-wise?
And you're no downer, of course!
A few issues I experienced personally were:
- no way to upgrade an account from non-paid (Student) to paid
- no way to discontinue or otherwise change annual payments (!)
- no way to cancel an account
It's entirely unprofessional that the above tasks cannot be performed online. And the above is just from my very brief interaction with the service.
Similarly, instructions for canceling one's account are given for most account types, but none exist for XNA Creator's Club.
There's actually a bit of non-XNA game middleware floating around out there that'll let you bite into that sweet, sweet C# potato. Unity comes to mind and is quite popular (and for good reason!). There's also several projects aimed at creating cross platform implementations of XNA with mono. Last I checked, none were quite 100% complete, but I think monogame is in a usable state these days.
Anyways, other people seem to be discussing your other points thoroughly and with more relevant experience than I can provide on the subject so I'll leave it at that. Good luck!
And you weren't too negative. Honest feedback is the only feedback with any worth. Thanks!
I agree with a lot of your points (C# being flexible and easy, XNA being a great framework to easily build games and your game sounding most fun with a controller and TV) but I have to stand with Robert and William when it comes to pricing. I'm certainly no XBLIG expert like they are, but I did release a game last May and follow a lot of XBLIG action. The one thing I tell anyone looking at XBLIG, it's stick to 80MSP. Almost no games sell well at 240MSP and a lot of devs have mentioned how much more revenue they made after dropping the price.
That being said, there IS money to made on XBLIG. It's not huge and it's certainly nowhere near what you can make on Steam, but it's there. The game I worked on, called "Minions!", reached 20,000 sales last week and continues to sell about 30 copies a day.
Keep up the good attitude and best of luck with your game! I hope it exceeds all our expectations :)
I've tried iphone, the market may be there but the tools haven't been up to par. I've not done much with Android though. And Sony is just starting to do something similar, although they do sometimes take some devs under their wing but that's totally different than XNA. So what really is the silver bullet? what platform can you develop for and be guaranteed success?
Porting to other platforms is a great way to get extra value out of your game though. My title Hypership Out of Control sold under 2,000 copies on XBLIG. The port to iOS took a month or two and has sold over 4,000 copies. That was much less work than creating a new game from scratch. I'd really consider PC (since you're doing XNA already) and possibly mobile platforms like iOS. WP7 is an option too (and easy to do the porting) but honestly my sales numbers are extremely low on that platform.
I also wouldn't tie great artwork to high trials. My best selling XBLIG title has crappy artwork that I created myself (I'm a programmer). The couple games I've contracted out professionals to create artwork for have sold considerably less.
Your artwork isn't actually that crappy––it's kinda endearing, actually. Before we hired Keith Burgun (of 100 Rogues fame) to do the art for FFLL, the placeholder art for the lasers in the game were just penises that our programmers drew in Microsoft paint.
I would suggest that you guys look at this project as a team-building / experience-building enterprise. Make the game and have fun, don't worry about money.
Imagine diagonal corridors and rooms where you can shoot your laser and create havoc, or a space-ship style level with multiple rooms with an isometric perspective where you get to unleash your laser wrath:)...Lasers can bounce from almost everyhting let's say a number of times before stopping... Man I would pay at least 10$ for that :).
"In my case, I’ve also had some previous experience with Visual Studios."
Your team's C# love aside, the quote above is quite funny from a programmer's point of view :). I don't want to be harsh on the guy, but I don't get it why "brag" about experience with previous visual studio versions :)). That is the sort of thing that junior programmers or guys just out of college are telling to me at an interview. Somehow it is a statement that you guys are kind of amateurish (at least the programming department), witch is not bad, but this gets to show in the final product.
http://discordgames.com/?p=1348
Best of luck to you!