Interview: Tim Larkin, Audio Director at Cyan
By Aaron Marks
Gamasutra
February 07, 2000
URL: http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20000207/marks_01.htm

We originally met at a get together of game composers and sound designers in early 1999 and then both promptly forgot our introductions. We caught up again a year later, through some mutual acquaintances and a little luck, for this interview. I, in my shorts and T shirt enjoying a perfect sunny southern California day, and Tim, huddled around the make believe fire in his Cyan studio overlooking a beautiful wintry scene, we chatted about life in the gaming industry.

So Tim, when did music and sound effects originate for you?

Well, I've played piano since the age of 4, trumpet since the fourth grade. I majored in music performance at Cal State Hayward, traveled with a top forty band for several years, then returned to the bay area doing session work and live gigs. My first sound effects exposure was with Broderbund software. I had digital audio experience with samplers which translated well into manipulating digital audio for sound effects.

But, how did a horn player get started in gaming?

I had just started a music production company with a very talented friend of mine who played in my jazz quintet, Greg Rahn, when we decided to hit up software companies for music. The first one in the phone book happened to be Broderbund. We both ended up on staff within the next several months as composer slant sound designers. Our original intent was just to produce music for as many clients as we could, however the staff position ended up taking most of our time, so the production company just slipped away.

How did you guys just decide to go to game companies with all of the other musical possibilities out there?

Basically, we wanted to put food on our tables and were going down the list of who we thought would want music. Games on CD-ROM were becoming more commonplace so we thought we'd just give it a shot. It just so happened Broderbund was the only company we ever called, the timing was perfect. And it's funny, this total fluke has turned into a great career.

What are your current projects?

Currently I’m working on sound and music for Cyan’s "next big thing". I can’t really disclose any details at the moment but maybe by the time this is published it will already be known. I’m still doing a great deal of freelance work as a trumpet player too, several documentaries, National Geographics, two feature films and a TV movie.

Do you work with any other developers or publishers?

Obviously now that I’m working as Audio Director for Cyan, there are some limitations as to what other games I can work on. That’s something you need to be aware of going in to any staff position. You can negotiate certain freelance rights but make sure to have that clear in advance with your company.

What game platforms do you generally develop for?

I develop mostly for PC and Mac. Many games that I have worked on in the past have ended up on Playstation but an outside developer did the port.

What is a typical workday for you?

My workday at Cyan pretty much follows the immediate needs. We’re working on a milestone at this point, so I’m really working on specific areas. As the art becomes available, then I’m able to follow up with sound. If there’s a bit of a break, then I work on the music. I try to schedule time in advance for music production when I can. I’m usually aware of the areas that will need music, so I can deal with that ahead of the art. After the area is somewhat complete, I’ll do my final recording and mixing of the music.

Tim Larkin in his studio

How do the sound effects normally start for you?

Lately it begins with rough art and animation. It may get rendered out in rough animations to begin with for timing purposes and art for rooms that require ambiance. As the animations get tweaked, so does the sound. I’ll also ask questions of the art teams about things I can’t see or might not be aware of that might affect the sound.

Do you have a personal sound effects philosophy?

That is so dependent on the situation. I’ve been pretty lucky working on projects like Riven where there is not much that’s real to begin with. As a result, you have so much more creative latitude. You’re not sure what you’re going to hear when an animation begins on something that you’ve never seen before. In many cases there are effects that need to be as realistic as possible so it doesn’t become too cartoon like, which again is not always a bad thing, but in the situations I’m involved in lately, it’s rare.

What equipment are you using for your sound effects creation?

I’m using a PT24 Mix system, 2 K2000’s, 2 JV1080’s, 1 JD990, lots of outboard gear and plugins. My most used mic is a Neumann U-87 for in studio recording. Field recording mics vary. Software: ProTools, Digital Performer, Peak, SonicWorx Artist, 3D Studio MAX, WaveConvert, StudioVision Pro, Sound Designer II, etc.

Which effects libraries do you use or have you developed your own that you plan to release?

I use almost every library I can afford to get my hands on. I have most of the standards like Sound Ideas, Digiffects and Hollywood Edge, plus any of the less popular ones I can find. I do have my own library of sounds and ambiance that I draw from and try to add to whenever possible. It’s always in the back of my mind to organize and release them commercially, but I’m not sure that will ever happen.

Explain your thought process for creating effects.

It varies. Usually on an animation that looks difficult to create sound for, I’ll put it aside and simmer the thought process for a day or so and then usually a method or idea comes to mind during that time. The other advantage to delaying the process if you can is you sometimes stumble across an effect which works great for the animation or scene you’re not working on at the time. Mistakes can be a great inspiration.

Is creating sound effects for games similar to those for film?

I think that the idea should be the same in the beginning. You should create the sound effects on the same level as you would for a film and by that I mean the same quality and depth. Just because it’s on a computer doesn’t mean it can be any less real or imaginative. Maybe in the long run it needs to be more so. I think at times larger than life is great, however one thing that I’ve noticed on many computer games is the lack of subtleties that are available in film. I know it’s not always possible because of space, resolution or bandwidth but overall it’s a bit disappointing to me and something that I am really striving to create in my current position. Sound doesn’t have to always be loud or huge to make an impact. I like to tease the subconscious whenever possible. It’s not all brute force, although that does come in handy from time to time.

Do you have any interesting stories to share about how particular sound effects were created?

Recently, I lived very close to Yosemite while working for Sierra Online. I would often take a day out in the high country to record ambiance or anything else I could find. After recording some ambiance in a remote Sequoia grove, I found an area filled with fallen trees. I spent the rest of the afternoon ripping the dead limbs to shreds, making sure someone didn’t walk by thinking I was crazy. Guess you had to be there. Anyway, I got some great sound effects out of that afternoon. The area sure was inspirational. The sounds were to be used for the Ents in Middle Earth, but I have used some in the project I’m working on now.

How do you ensure consistency through a project?

In my current situation I’m able to implement the audio the same day it’s created. So I’m constantly monitoring what I produce. In other cases, it’s not always so easy, especially if you’re one of many sound designers on a project, and in my case, usually doing it from a distant location across the net. I’ll usually request some files that are complete or close to it and work from there.

I don't have any particular 'method' that I use. With all the luxuries I have here, it's a little different. I can walk right out my door and there is a programmer, what we call a tagger, who will take my audio and immediately implement it. I look at in the context of the game and if I need to tweak the sound, I can just overwrite the original file and within minutes tell if it's going to work or not.

I'll also use a simple Mac program, Listen, were I can throw the sound files into it and they will play. I can layer several sounds to play at once and it gives me a fairly good idea what they will sound like together in the game.

What considerations do you have for creating ambiance?

Most importantly to me is the ability to create an ambiance that somehow continues to move. The way of accomplishing that usually takes a bit of layering and features in the game engine that allows for randomness and constant change.

On outside work, what do you normally charge per sound effects project?

I’ve found that for sound effects, the projects I’ve been involved in on a freelance level seem to work better on an hourly or weekly basis. I have a pretty wide scale for hourly, ranging from $75 to $150 per hour depending on the work involved. Music is a different story. Right now I’m in a salary situation with Cyan, so that changes the overall picture with benefits.

If you had to choose one project that is most representative of your sound design work, what would it be?

Tim Larkin chooses Riven as the one project most indicative of his work.

Riven. I did such a huge body of work for that project. I think I ended up doing sound for about 600 movies and I put together about 45 minutes of ambiance too. It was all in a style and genre that I really enjoy too which is probably another reason why I'm here at Cyan now. I had been doing kids games for Broderbund and I was really ready to break out of that at the time. I was doing alot of cartoony and kids scores, which are really fun but I needed something more aesthetically challenging, something a little darker.

So how do you followup a project as huge as Riven?

With the 'next best thing', I guess. I had intended to follow up working on Tolkiens Middle Earth with Sierra Online, at least that was the idea. Tolkien was going to be a blast, there is so much opportunity for some really cool sound I was very excited about. I've spent some time working on it already but then they began some major reorganization. I hope to be able to finish that eventually.

I had always stayed in touch with the guys at Cyan and when they began to embark on their next thing, I was definitely interested, as were they, and we made the connection. To me this is the project to follow up Riven with being able to take audio to the next level - whatever that means.

Is it safe to say then, that Riven has been your favorite project?

Definitely Yes. I worked with incredibly creative designers, Robyn Miller and Richard VanderWend, as well as a great staff of PM’s and producers from both Cyan and Broderbund. It was also a step out aesthetically for me at the time to a style I really enjoy doing, much more cinematic than most other games to date. A pretty intense period of time and a great reward when it was done.

Which particular games did you score?

I’ve worked on the music for many games, generally in tandem with someone else. I’ve done music for Arthur, Rugrats, Dr. Seuss, Carmen Sandiego, Playroom and played on many more. I’m currently working on scoring this project with Cyan. Whether or not I end up doing the entire score, I’m not sure at this point.

Speaking of game scores, do you have any favorites?

Grim Fandango stands out. The music implementation and composition really complement each other. Chance Thomas' score for Quest For Glory V is also one of my favorites. He did a great job. The music Greg Rahn did for Warbreeds was really good too, but the game didn't do very well and as a result he didn't get as much acclaim as he should have from that effort.

When do you find that you are most creative?

The majority of my musical ideas come to me in the middle of the night. I think it’s because I’m usually processing all the information about an area or for an idea during the day, and then when I finally let it go at night, the idea breaks through. Then I usually lay awake for a few hours unable to think of anything else. I do have a setup at home I will use on those occasions to put down some rough ideas, so I can go back to sleep.

Are there any other secrets to your creativity besides insomnia?

I wish I had some secret formula or something. Sometimes it’s like pulling teeth, other times I can’t stop it. I know there are quite a few composers out there that have much more control over their creativity. I’m not one. It can truly be a struggle at times but it has always worked out in the end.

Do you at least have a special thought process for scoring?

Usually it’s based on the feel I get for an area. I usually get some graphics in my possession, or a pretty good idea of what the story is about at the particular spot, and begin formulating ideas from there.

Do you think the Grammy Awards will have any impact on games and game scores?

Hard to say before it actually happens but I hope it will raise the awareness within the musical community that music can be made as well and be just as effective for a gaming environment as any other. I imagine that it won’t hurt game sales either.

What about programming, what's your involvement there?

In the situation I’m in right now, I need to know more than I’ve ever had to before because of what I’m asking the engine to do. I don’t actually end up doing the implementation but I need to design with the limitations and features in mind.

Do you think it is important for the sound guy to know how to program?

I’m not sure knowing how to program is important but rather knowing what the programmer does and being able to communicate your needs to them. I don’t feel it necessary to sit down and program any more than I think the programmer should sit down and write a score, although I know a few who would do a great job. My primary concern is creating the sound and music to the best of my ability and creating it to work the best it can within the features of the engine I’m designing for. It’s more understanding than knowing how.

What new technologies are you working with?

I’d really like to elaborate on what I feel is cutting edge right now but then I’d be giving away more than I’m allowed to. I think every game engine that comes along allows us to continue to stretch out parameters. It’s important that you as a sound designer make sure to get involved in the process early on and voice your concerns and desires. You can bet the artists will!

Where do you see game music and sound headed in the future?

I think and hope we will continue to gain credibility. We’re still somewhat of a transparent commodity at his point. The other industries that do the same thing as we do, with fewer hoops to jump through, are just beginning to recognize the skill and quality that can go into our work. There is quite a bit more recognition for a composer or sound designer in film or television, but as you know, that too is changing with the recent Grammy category expanded to add game scores. It’s not the end all, but it’s a great first step, and a culmination of a lot of hard work from the committee headed up by Chance Thomas.

Any hopes for surround sound?

It's all a possibility. I think surround sound is dependent on the 3rd party manufactures not only to get the consumer equipment more accessible in price but to develop the technology. We are dependant on the fact that mixing on the fly has to be done outside the processor on the sound card or chipset somewhere that isn't utilizing the same processor as the game. When that happens and becomes commonplace it will be great. Obviously everyone is looking ahead to that. Stereo in games wasn't really a reality until just a few years ago, there was only a barrage of mono files being thrown at you. Now that stereo has taken hold it will take a while longer for 5.1 to become the norm but you can bet that it's coming.

What do you see as the best type of relationship between the audio folks and the

developer/publisher?

Many of my working relationships have ended up with the developer and myself being good friends. That’s probably one of the reasons I’m here at Cyan today. We had a great working relationship, took the other parties needs into consideration and ended up wanting to work together again. I think you should try to treat all business relationships that way, regardless of whether you’re doing audio or not. Be professional and you’ll be treated the same way. I’m still in touch regularly with many of the producers that I’ve worked for over the years, whether I’m working for them or not.

What advice would you give to current and future game composers and sound designers?

Tough one. I’d say for the newbies, experience. Get as much experience as possible in as many situations as possible. There’s always a curve coming your way and experience seems to be the best way around it. For current composers and designers, I still seek their advice whenever I can. There is a great group of peers that have been through the growing stages with me and I think we all have learned a ton from each other over the years. Stay connected. There’s so much valuable information from the other people you work with. They might be sitting next to you right now.

What considerations should developers/publishers be concerned with when hiring composers and sound designers?

Look at their track record. Definitely talk with a few of their previous employers and see what they can bring to your table. Look for innovation and quality. Nothing thrills me more than to hear something really fresh or a new way of approaching something. When I play a game, or listen to a soundtrack, I want to say, "Damn, why didn’t I think of that!"

What advice would you give a developer/publisher when looking for audio?

Try to see audio as a bigger part of the experience. We’re not the bastard child of gaming, well, OK maybe we have been, but we shouldn’t be any more. Don’t be afraid to think as big on a game score as you would for a movie. Maybe I’m asking a bit much but it’s better to ask for more than to expect less. Like it or not, sound is 50% of the sensory experience.

Do you have any personal undertakings outside of games?

Having just moved to the Spokane area, my personal ventures are pretty much limited to my family. I haven’t had a great deal of time to explore the area as of yet. So after the kids go to bed, I usually put in my trumpet practice time. I have a studio setup at home as well so I can so some writing and recording there. I’ve been doing some recording sessions via the Internet lately, which thrills me to death. No more flights to LA for the most part. Now I get the MIDI file from a composer, lay the trumpet on top and send back a digital file. The composer on the other end picks it up via an FTP site or I burn a CD and send it overnight.

In a perfect world, what would you rather be doing?

In an ideal situation, I think I'd be in the studio everyday playing trumpet, whether doing a different film or a different soundtrack. I do alot of it now and it's still not enough! If I could, I would just be playing all the time. There is something about the instant gratification of recording it and playing it back that I can't describe. Hearing it on the radio or in a theater or on TV is also very exciting. Where I am now, I don't get the chance to be in the studio with other players, I'm usually doing something on my own, I send it in and then don't get to hear how it sounded in the final project until I see it on TV or something.

So much for instant gratification.

Yeah. I remember one time, driving down the road, I heard a tune thinking, hey this is kinda cool, must be Jerry Hey and the guys. It sounded familiar but it wasn't until later that I realized, hey, I played on that. It was a real trip, I had totally forgotten.

Do you have a particular philosophy that has made you successful?

Persistence, quality and profile. I believe that the majority of my success is due to persistence. I try to know where and when projects are happening, then keep checking in until the time comes. Chances are I’ll get the call. I’m not pushy, I just make sure to let people know I’m interested. Profile is another major factor in any business. If you work on a major title or with a major company, then you need to capitalize on those names. Make sure you follow up with any interviews or press that might be associated with the projects. Keep your name out within the industry as well among your peers. And most of all, do good solid work, deliver everything and always deliver more than what’s expected of you. There’s no better way to be successful than having your client be pleasantly surprised with something better than they expected, and maybe even ahead of the deadline. You can’t buy a better endorsement than that.

And a final question, since I haven't been able to stump you yet, what do you do for fun now that all of your hobbies have become a job?

Tim Larkin spending time in nature.

That was a great question for last year when I lived minutes from Yosemite. I spent a great deal of time enjoying that area, lots of exploring and hiking Half Dome, Yosemite Falls and alot of the backcountry. Night hikes to the top of Sentinel Dome were a favorite too. Chance Thomas and I were living in the same area working for the same company, so I’d drag him along on some of my treks which made for a great time. We would also talk a great deal about balance. Balance brings perspective to your work. How can you expect to attempt to recreate nature in a game without spending time in it?

I’ve yet to explore the Spokane area but you can bet I’ll be out soon. Other than that, I get to spend time with the two greatest kids in the world, my seven-year-old daughter and five-year-old son, and my beautiful wife. That can be a real inspiration and a blast.

Contact: Tim.Larkin@cyan.com

Company website: www.cyan.com

Tim didn't ask me but I thought since he was such a swell guy, he wouldn't mind if I did I a little plug here. If you are interested in hearing some very nice jazz horn playing, you can samples his work at:
http://www.checkout.com/music/title/info/0,6789,165748,00.html#info

Tim's jazz album is also now available on-line, at:
http://www.avenuerecords.com.

If you like what you hear, as I did, you can order his album at any major record retailer.

Aaron Marks (aaron@onyourmarkmusic.com), when not interviewing game composers and sound designers, is actually one himself as the proprietor of On Your Mark Music Productions. (www.onyourmarkmusic.com)

Copyright © 2003 CMP Media Inc. All rights reserved.