BS: It seems like once things get so real, then the best thing to do is deconstruct it and focus on pieces. Have you seen any of the indie art genre-type games like Night Journey?

TM: No.

BS: It's done with an experimental artist in collaboration. You just slowly walk through this 3D world, and you're in a dream, and there are certain objects that you can look at and interact with. As you do, these movies play and stream in and out and sort of guide you through the world, and more things start to happen. It's really like walking through an art piece.

TM: Yeah, that kind of experiment, I think was done with many people, like George Lucas. Even Lucas, he had an experiment movie he made - THX 1138. I think we need that kind of experience with range. I want to make this kind of game. I want to make a new game for reaching the mass of people. But we need a wider range.

CN: What strikes me about Rez is that it's very deep but kind of small, whereas a lot of games are very shallow but broad, if you follow what I'm saying. Like a big, mass-market shooter will have a lot of content that's very simple but fun, and this has a lot of thought and artistry that gets put in this game, but it's kind of small. There's a contrast there in technique. Is that a different conscious approach you see? Like, taking these different approaches, different possibilities for how you can make a game?

TM: Yes. I think in a consciousness, I am working like that all the time. But I think the mass-market game... there is a format already. This format is safe, for developers and publishers and customers, too.

The game itself, as media, is different from movies. In movies, you have a format. This kind of resolution, this kind of screen size, and maybe two hours... less than three hours, anyway. This is the point of view. The third point of view. Somebody watching you, and somebody watching the actors. Who is this? Everybody knows. This is kind of a promise...

CN: A convention.

TM: Yeah, of the consciousness. Everybody doesn't care about that. But I think there is history in movies, a long history, versus 30 or 40 years. No drama at all -- just the magic they used. [At first, something would simply fly by], and going "whoa," like that. (Mizuguchi gestures.)

But somebody picked a story, and somebody picked the actors, and somebody gave direction, and a producer came and expanded. With a game, there's no format yet. I think there's kind of a freedom, so we can do anything in an interactive, digital way.

BS: Games and movies and even art, like Picasso or something, is trying to recreate 3D space in a 2D plane. Movies, paintings and games are all flat. But it gives the illusion of third dimension. Actually, I guess I don't have a question, but something you said made me want to say that.

TM: I was thinking about the point of view, all the time. In a movie, the point of view... I've never seen an all-first person movie, like that.

BS: There's been some.

TM: But almost all movies edit the point of view. In a game, some games are third point of view, but essentially, this is a first-person point of view. Most of the games, because it's an experience. I think about how we can design the experience... if we had a new point of view, I think a new consciousness would come in all the time.