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Do you think something like Mass Effect 2 might have the potential to get someone who is less roleplaying-inclined to become slightly more interested in what might happen in that kind of scenario?
GZ: I think it definitely would. I think the key is to obviously get them to try it. They've got to try it, they've got to play it. And then when they find out... Say they're a shooter player, a very significant portion of the game, they're very familiar with and very good at already, they'll be more inclined to play it.
The key thing with the story delivery is to ensure that it's not intrusive or heavy-handed or overbearing. It can be fast and entertaining and keep pacing really fast, and then draw people in. It's the kind of game that like from a hit-buyer's perspective, everyone should try it.
I think of any of our games, this is the one that's the most of a calling card. And then they'll see the customization, and they'll go, "Oh, this is not so bad. I kind of like it." And they'll be open to more and deeper experiences. Or just more of the same.
I've actually been asking this question of quite a few people. Do you think there is potential to create a game that pretty much has a reverse of the Mass Effect 2 action-to-dialogue ratio -- very exploration and discovery-oriented?
GZ: I think those are Bethesda's games. [laughs] You know what I mean? It's interesting in the sense... And I respect them. Actually I love their games. What's interesting is it really emphasizes what we're all individually as companies are good at and what we have determined to be our secret sauce, or whatever it is. And you push it, push it, push it.
You can see this direct linear relationship over time of where we've been going, and you can do the same with them. It's really neat. I look at their games. They've added a little more story and obviously in Fallout 3 than they had historically, but really the backbone of that game was just the ability to cruise around all over the place. That was just stunning.
It's interesting you say that, because for me, in Fallout 3, the main thing that was great for me was walking from point A to point B, I see something to distract myself and more stuff to discover.
GZ: It's crazy. [laughs] The thing is I spend so much time not doing things, I was like, "Oh man, I spent 40 hours, and where's that story again?" And I have to turn back.
Dragon Age is pretty much an offline MMO on the PC side.
GZ: A large part of it is, yeah.
How do you intend to differentiate it from your upcoming MMO?
I think the key thing that we've accomplished with Star Wars: The Old Republic is having all the really great stuff you have in an MMO, just stuff you expect like crafting, the trading, and all these crazy things that really you need to sort of drive it, and then pairing in story.
What's interesting is we're in a testing phase now for the games. We're playing it and testing it and seeing how it works. I think the key thing will also be, how do you share quests and how do you interact together?
I think one of the most interestingly differentiated elements is that ability to share conversations. I think that's going to be something that really will be very, very interesting, because we have discussions around how you resolve these situations. You know, disagreements create a whole new social level that hasn't existed. So, I think that's actually going to be really fun.
As social networks proliferate, I haven't quite seen someone integrating what's good about Facebook, and your ability to talk to friends, and see what they're up to with an MMO that is of a large scale. Do you see potential there?
GZ: I see some potential there. I think for me, Facebook is the place to share the info with your friends, but I think it's also a double-edged sword. I mean, we all turn off the feeds of games and apps that spam us like crazy. You have to be careful about it. I think we keep the amount of apps or widgets that are like user-driven that you can then sort of use those... And I think actually, my understanding of where Facebook's going, too, is not so much info on the feed but more in applications and stuff.
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"Talking specifically the point of the potions in Dragon Age, when I was playing that, a pop-up told me that when you get injuries, you've got to heal them with injury packs, but the text never told me how to heal with the injury pack.
GZ: [laughs] And if you looked at the status, it's like deaf, blind, broken arms.
Yes, yes. It was 10 hours in when I was like, "Alright. I've got to figure out how to do this." But I couldn't do it like straight from the inventory."
FFS.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y189/wildslop/bottledstreamline.jpg
Fortunately, our feature article section contains an overwhelming number of interviews and other types of content involving individuals who are not the BioWare guys: http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/article_display.php
Jealous?
As to the content of the interview, it makes me glad to see developers who are able to publically admit some of the shortcomings of their games, and I like the fact that they have two franchises that they're taking in different directions - one an old school D&D style game, and one a more cinematic action game. They're probably right that a lot of the audience doesn't overlap (I know people who will play Mass Effect and not touch Dragon Age and vice versa), but I'm personally quite interested in seeing where they go with both styles of game because I've found them both to be quite interesting so far.
On the other hand, I gave Mass Effect 2 a thorough playthrough and I loved every minute of it. There were definite issues here and there, but it is obvious that the development team knows how to tell a story and tell it well. I think Mass Effect 2, for all its strengths and weaknesses, is a great example of how to attract new players while not disappointing the game's fan base.
I'm one of those players who hasn't really touched rpg's, but there are a couple I've played, and when I have played them, I've rinsed them dry:
Final Fantasy 8: It's notably a bit shootery, and a lot more instant reward than the other FF games, what with the SeeD salary system and the "1000XP to level up" limit.
Final Fantasy 9: Just the music and aesthetic kept me playing, the actual grind was frustrating...
Freelancer: It's in space...
Mass Effect: It's in space and it's a shooter...starting to see a pattern here
Mass Effect 2: I LIKE THINGS IN SPACE!
Bioware has made good RPGs (overall) for a long time, they have always had good battle mechanics, they use "RTS" battle mechanics in their RPG's excluding of Mass effect.
Many western RPG developers are great at battle mechanics. I respect all developers but I'm not really into some action RPG's and the more oldschool RPG's from the DOS days - eye of the beholder, etc.
Is that better?
I haven't seen Bioware bashing Japanese RPGs (or East Asian in general) but it's possible, I suppose. However, I stated on their forums for Dragon Age that it is a same that we cannot have a game with lore writing by Bioware and art by Japanese artists (or other East Asian artists from Korea, China, etc) because Bioware (and Western in general) artists just do not seem to be able to make characters with appealing visual aesthetics, at least for me. But others replied on the forum echoing my sentiments, so it is not a matter of ethnic background as much as it's a matter of artist appeal, or lack thereof.
Lore... well, the first play thru of Mass Effect or Dragon Age means I spend most of the time reading the lore. If I don't have the background, I don't have any reason to be doing the things I'm doing in the game. However, I still do not feel any real emotional connection to the various characters as I do (quite easily) in many Japanese games. I strongly support Bioware's writing of lore, including the various social issues they bring into the game stories, but the focus on unappealing "realistic" character visuals removes any emotional immersion for me. Of course, this is also a reason why I need to jump around to different titles from around the world. ^_^;
I have to say that I'm surprised by the confusion about the interface of Dragon Age or any trrouble using items, except for the issue of not having an option to use something directly from inventory (very odd, not to mention that inventory is exactly where a major known bug is for Rogues). But I never wondered how to heal or fix injuries on either console or PC versions. Maybe it was just my experience jumping around to different titles through the decades.
With respect to ME 2 and the changes... well, frankly, if Bioware wants to make a shooter, then make a shooter and market it as such, even if it has RPG elements. Deus Ex and many other games have done this with no problem. Yes, there were some issues in ME 1, but I fail to see the benefit of starting a franchise trilogy as an RPG with shooter elements and then changing midstream. I just don't agree with the decision.
I'd also point out that multimedia marketing has been a key component of Japanese games, manga, and anime for decades, at least since the 1980s. For anime and manga, the concept goes back farther than that. CD dramas, trading cards, dolls, figure kits, etc... the world of many stories, even some that are niche audience only, have an enormous amount of material offered for them that expands on the whole of the work. Bioware's efforts mirror those of their Japanese counterparts, and it's nice to see an American company making such an effort since it has been proven to be extremely effective in Japan. Still, I'd say the English market has a long ways to go compared to Japan as far as multimedia approaches to storytelling. I think part of the reason for that is that products here tend to be separated with licenses for characters and derivative works handed out separately, whereas the Japanese efforts tend to be cooperative and coordinated from the beginning.
As just one example from the 1990s, consider the launch of CLAMP's Magic Knight Rayearth. It was never intended to be solely a manga published in Nakayoshi starting in 1994. From the beginning, it was intended to be a launch title for the Sega Saturn game system, as well as an anime (sponsored with ads for the game system launch featuring live actors as the three lead heroines), dolls, CDs, posters, lithographs, artbooks, etc. In America, we're lucky to have a game CD soundtrack released... just ONE!
Heck, for another example, consider how Tokimeki Memorial became a huge bonanza for Konami to finance many other projects due to the many, many products sold featuring the characters as well as the various spin off stories for different audiences and focusing on different elements of the TokiMemo world.
I knew another Ys fan who had over 50 CDs just for that game title and the associated works related to it.
You get the idea, anyway... we could do such things, but we don't, with few exceptions.
Heavy Rain's recent surprise success will usher in a resurgence of ye olde adventure games soon enough. Ubisoft and others are already tripping all over themselves to try and push it into games they're working on. The large corporate game companies don't make trends, they follow them. Mores the pity they got so big...
Since you are talking about story as it's currently defined, it cannot have any place in a definition of a game - ANY game. Story as it's (currently) defined is about something, (an account of events), that is being applied TO someone else (a narrative). In other words, you like these games for what they do TO you - i.e. plot/narrative and/or setting. But games are defined by what WE DO, WITHIN such a setting, not what is done TO us. Because of this, ANY story, (plot/narrative), a game has is purely in addition to - (interleaved with) - what the player does.
Games that tell a story (plot/narrative), are merely that, nothing else, regardless of how 'immersive' the story telling elements are, from it's plot/narrative to it's setting.
Yes, Bioware (from all the games I've played), seem to like to make a game to TELL a story, and Bethesda Softworks' seem to be very good at creating fantastic immersive settings within which a game can take place, but games are defined by what the player can DO - the gameplay - and as such, I've always felt that both companies games are still lacking somewhat, (for slightly different reasons).
Since (from what I can tell, having not played it (yet), (so if I'm wrong, please let me know)), Heavy Rain is about interactive story TELLING, rather than purely about what the player DOES, it is not actually a game at all. We actually have a far better word to represent such 'interactive story telling', but many do not recognise it for that. From what I can tell, Heavy Rain is merely a 'choose your own adventure book' in video form, with a different system of interacting to decide which story to be told. Since 'choose your own adventure books' are NOT games, neither is Heavy Rain. What they REALLY are, is PUZZLES, which (IMO), should be defined exactly AS 'interactive story telling', since that is exactly what puzzles are (of ALL kinds).
All of the problems here stem from the - (very simple and fundamental) - main problem my paper is about, (and solves), (which is why I can talk about it with a fair degree of certainty) - if only I could actually manage to write the darn thing...
Everybody has a story, whether it is serene, mundane, violent, traumatic, or shocking. We attempt to create dynamic environments that allow players to transcend the realities of their lives and become influential figures that drive narratives, only to realize that linear storylines are always looming over players no matter how much freedom we give players. For example, players make moral decisions and NPC AI and conversation trees adjust themselves accordingly. Simple. The redundancy arises because players KNOW whether they are doing right or wrong and most will be able to determine how individual NPCs will react. We may be able to provide entertainment spikes with the actions that NPCs take in reaction to player decisions, but we cannot create inconsistencies by having NPCs make rash or irrational choices that are contradictory their ultimate goals just to give players a superficial sensation of their moral alignment.
I believe that the solution is to make conversation just as dynamic and combative as shooting. The same way that a verbal encounter that gives you a bad vibe will deter you from future dealings with that individual, NPCs can possess that same type of awareness. To me, pacing and tension are related but not directly proportional. If we can maintain a high level of tension during exposition, players will have no choice but to become immersed in the story because knowledge of NPC moods and tendencies will be vital to successfully navigating conversations. This will provide for a dynamic morality scale that will fluctuate depending on who you are speaking to or interacting with.
This is just one method that I have been fine tuning to create an experience that will not only push the limits of technology, but the creative drive of me and whoever else I can convince to take this ride with me. I am just a student, but I know that interactive media is the next frontier for the artists of our time, just as film was at the turn of the 20th century. And the beautiful thing about art is that it knows no discrimination, no skin color, no limits and no boundaries. I encourage everyone to broaden their horizons and never be scared to do what seems impossible... That's what I'm facing.... Peace
That said? I still haven't felt all that immersed in a role playing game since back in the day of Bard's Tale, Ultima, Wasteland, Fallout, etc. I think it was, and this is going to sound a bit funny - but I think it was automapping that did it. I remember way back then, there were debates about automapping, and how rpgs would forever lose something. And sure, we gained a lot... but I miss all the teleport traps, spin traps, and graph paper.
There is something lost when every dungeon, be it the cavernous DA:O ones, or narrow pathway FFXIII ones, is basically just going from A to B with some side trip treasure rooms here and there. I'm certainly not calling for the elimination of auto-mapping - as nostalgic as I am, I have no interest in going out to buy graph paper. But I do think something has been lost, and I wish a replacement could be found. Make dungeons hard again. Riddles, puzzles, traps.
As for Heavy Rain - there are only two games that have ever stopped me from killing pixels. The first was Shadow of the Colossus. Only a few beasts in, I simply had to stop playing. I couldn't ethically justify continuing. That's amazing. The second was Heavy Rain, though I can't really discuss the situation due to spoilers. Anyone that's played should know what I'm talking about. That's impressive. I have mixed feelings about the controls and such, but I'll give Cage this - I was fully immersed, and I think part of that was the early requirements to do some relatively basic things (ie, wash your hands). A huge step up from Indigo Prophesy, which is also great.