So at some point, you decided that it'd be a good thing to get back into your original vision, which was to form a publishing company. Something you were trying to do with GodGames, which, with all the lessons you had talked about, maybe you were better equipped to handle this time.

MW: Like I said, at Take 2, that position just afforded me the retrospective, to be inspired to do it again. And I talked to Harry and Rick about what I learned, and the real numbers, and maybe, but I still wasn't fully committed. I mean, it's just, it's such a commitment to start one of these things; and we all know ourselves well enough to know that we can't get in sort of halfway. It's like: If we're in, we're in. You know? Because that's really, that's really what we bring to the table. If I'm publishing your game, I'm going to try to do as good a job as you are of trying to develop it. So it was a big deal, to go: "Are we ready to really do this again?" And to possibly put ourselves out there for disappointment again, or, you know, whatever. Heartbreak.

For your families, too.

MW: Yeah! It was like: "Honey, are you ready? For me to fly all over the world again? And to wake up in the middle of the night, and be thinking about games? I dunno if I'm ready; how do you feel about it?" She was like: "If it's yours, and you care about it, and it's something to focus on..."

Because we're not meant to not work, Tom. I don't know if you know this, but us westerners are programmed to go crazy if we stop producing. I was dangerously flirting with that. 'Cause I'm a guy that's used to doing 90 different things, and if I try to do just one... And we talked about it, and laughed about it, and, honestly? The whole Gamecock thing? the idea of doing it only if we can do it on our terms again? And be goofy about it? And have fun? 'Cause, this is one of the things that I learned from the whole Burning Man documentary experience, and getting into that culture, was just: the importance of not taking yourself so seriously, and of remembering to be a kid. And it's something this industry could really stand an injection of.

And so, that was what I felt like could be different this time, in the inspiration, because at the end of GodGames, I found myself a 30 year old CEO of a company, doing a hundred million dollars revenue. And when you're in that position, whether you take yourself seriously or not? Other people do. And they come to you, and they, most of the people that are talking to you are asking your advice. Or asking permission, or asking for approval, or whatever, and it changes your frame of reference. Like, I'm just a dork guy, you know? A goof from Louisiana! I don't even have a proper education. When suddenly everybody you know is putting you in that cast, inevitably you start to take yourself more seriously -- which is the road to disaster.

And I'm like, "You know, I'm not going back to being a serious executive guy." Like, "I never aspired to that; none of my heroes are great businessmen. I'll do it if we can do it on our own terms; have fun, do original stuff, with people that will inspire us." You know? The developers that will give us something back. Creative juice. So it's just not an exercise that, you may as well be selling widgets.

So when I came up with the name "Gamecock" and we had a big laugh, and we were drunk, and I was like: "That's it!" That was really the first thing that made me excited about this idea. Not the first thing, but the thing that really cinched it. Like, "Oh my God, if we can really have a major league company, that could do big business like GodGames? And it's called Gamecock? And everybody has to take it seriously? If I could wake up and be worried about games, and then have a chuckle about talking to a Wal-Mart buyer about Gamecock, that'll help."

What a switch, though; going from "GodGames" to "Gamecock." I think that's telling.

MW: A little bit. It's the same idea, though. I mean, "God" was always just to have fun with that, too. You know, Catholic schoolgirls, and boxing nuns, and all of that stuff; it was all, like, "Come on, let's not take ourselves so seriously."

Still, once we had the inspiration to really go after it, we were still almost two years away. Because we weren't going to do this underfunded again. So it was like, we're going to find the right partners -- and that takes a lot of doing. You know? A lot of people saying "yes" -- a hundred of them, roughly -- before you actually get a check. And we didn't want the five million dollar check this time, to get started, "and then we'll raise the rest," because what if you don't? But then you end up in the same situation, so, we waited until we found the right suckers. The right kind of money to be able to compete.

The game industry is not in a way that we get that money. Culturally, that we get that money. We might get money because it's a write-off. Or, in our instance, we made money last time -- we made a lot of money. We were looking for guys that were interested in making money, but were OK with the risk profile of being an entertainment company, and that it's an all-or-nothing proposition. But with us, we were able to paint a picture, through history, that even with our flops, eventually it's going to make a little bit of money. And we're going to hit some singles and doubles, and every now and then it's going to sail right out of the park. It's all about having a track record -- and who knows, you know?

It's a different industry now. Who knows if we'll have that many hits. But we don't need to. Our business plan doesn't call for any million-unit sellers. Not one. So if we have one or two? Instead of eight? We're happy. Because we don't plunge ten, twenty, thirty million dollars into things that -- that's just not our model. That's not even an option.

One of your partners that you keep mentioning: Alex Seropian. He has said that now is the best time to be in game development that he has ever been aware of. That it's a more experimental time, a more open time than it's ever been. Perhaps all your earlier ventures -- your efforts at Ion Storm, your efforts at GodGames -- maybe now the timing is right, finally, for this.

MW: Maybe so. I just, I sure hope so. Whatever; we're going to have fun; there's no way our investors are going to lose their shirts. And as long as we can continue to do it on our own terms, you know?

And if we never have that million-unit seller, but we continue for a few years, or you know, however long it's fun -- to keep doing this, and crank out some original games. If it is more like an indie film audience; you know, a niche audience, where every now and then one breaks out, but most of it is just for the people that really appreciate the fact that you're taking a chance on something original?

Or maybe even eventually a sort of fair trade mentality breaks out into game consumers, where they care about how you treat the artist, and if there's, I hate to use the term "slave labor." Not like real slaves, but certainly some horrific working conditions for a lot of the talent in the industry, as far as the hours they work, the credit they get, and the real job security they have. We're in a rare position to be able to try to make some money, but also have fun, and be good to people. Again, I'm a lucky guy, you know? It's been a lucky run, and I've never had to be the bastard in this industry. The fact that that's our niche? Is to not be the bastard? It is sad, but hey, I'll take it. If nobody else is doing it...!