"There are some things we’ve pulled back from. I think where this has been an issue is with violence against women -- the team’s pulled back from some of that and assessed that a little more carefully."
-Sony Santa Monica's David Hewitt responds to post-E3 concerns that the upcoming God of War: Ascension for PlayStation 3 is promoting ultra-violence in video games. Apparently, violence against women is one of the places that the team tries to draw the line.
Hewitt also has an interesting justification for lead character Kratos' violent behavior: apparently, the team's combat designers and animators have intentionally animated Kratos so that "there’s not a lot of flourishes, there’s not any kind of enjoying the moment.
You'd have to be a bit clearer. Are you suggesting that its sexist to refrain from showing a physically dominant male character dismembering and disfiguring a weaker female character?
It's sexist in the same sense that chivalry towards women is sexist.
Trying to debate this makes my head hurt and i sincerely think that we have more easy to solve sexism issues. Let's cross that bridge when we get to it.
Differential treatment based on gender. Is that not sexism? Is it benevolent sexism? Is that like touting positive racial stereotypes, like the Asian super-student meme, and saying it's ok?
I can't agree with it being sexist, in that feminism, or the concept of gender equity shouldn't be considered sexist. The fact that there is a line to be drawn is in itself an issue. To be honest, men and women are not equal and thus cannot be treated equally. That being said they should be treated fairly, which is a distinction I feel people fail to make. The "line" thats being drawn here is a bit ambiguous, but if I'm Kratos and I'm face to face with a woman wearing combat armor and waving a spear in my face, well, I'm going to neutralize the threat. If we want to start making gratuitous violence against innocent women an issue, why not back that up to gratuitous violence against innocent anyone? The fact that it is okay to enjoy slaughtering innocent men on their way to milk a goat is just as much of an issue as wanting slaughter that mans wife who might be out for a walk. Such is my opinion, it is a tricky issue, and perhaps even bringing light to it wasn't great on their part.
"Kratos have been dismembering weaker pawns since the first game."
Yes, and these weaker pawns have included female opponents such as Sirens and Gorgons. Put women in armour, give them weapons, give them powers, give them the vaguest sense of competence, just like every enemy in the game, and no one will have a problem with Kratos butchering them like everything else.
But when SSM talk about not crossing a line, I think it's clear that they mean violence against VULNERABLE women. Yes, Kratos has victimized plenty of vulnerable men throughout the games, but that is not laden with NEARLY the kind of problematic connotations that violence against vulnerable women brings.
You honestly can't see the differences between Kratos obliterating anoymous mooks, and Kratos assaulting and harming vulnerable, non-combatant women?
And, also, seriously guys.
Ask yourselves why you're so indignant about the fact that you can't beat the shit out of women.
What, is kicking the crap out of men not satisfying enough for you, or something? Does Kratos specifically need to beat up on women in order for you to experience an adequate visceral thrill? Mangling and maiming ordinary mooks doesn't cut it for you, is that it? It needs to be women for you to derive that satisfaction?
If you're indulging in a martyr fantasy and thinking of yourself as oppressed because the battery of vulnerable women is frowned upon, is it not time to wonder whether your perspective is a little skewed?
"Differential treatment based on gender. Is that not sexism? Is it benevolent sexism?"
Maybe. God of War sure ain't guilty of it, though. The series includes female adversaries that at least pose a rudimentary threat to Kratos.
"Cognitive dissonance, gotta scrub my cortex."
I think the more likely explanation is that most people recognize that sexism can't be defended, and so they misrepresent and minimize sexism, and attempt to sabotage the discussion instead.
"Ask yourselves why you're so indignant about the fact that you can't beat the shit out of women."
What is indignant is the fact that when these subjects are touched there's a lot of condescension and approval-seeking on it's tail. Coupled with a bunch of preset assumptions and hidden false-premises trying to skip discussion in directions they could even head if properly conducted, for the sake of making unfunded arguments and emotional appeal sound cool.
"What, is kicking the crap out of men not satisfying enough for you, or something?"
No, Power Fantasy is not my genre of choice. It's just boring pointless escapism with no benefits for you mental fitness.
"Does Kratos specifically need to beat up on women in order for you to experience an adequate visceral thrill?"
Visceral thrill? No wonder why gaming still carry all these negative stigmas.
"Mangling and maiming ordinary mooks doesn't cut it for you, is that it?"
I've played God Of War a few times in friends houses, but I don't remember that part of the game. I think you mean watching Kratos mangling and maiming ordinary mooks, because I myself was just playing Simon.
"It needs to be women for you to derive that satisfaction?"
Which satisfaction? Pressing B and Y when you're told to?
"If you're indulging in a martyr fantasy and thinking of yourself as oppressed because the battery of vulnerable women is frowned upon, is it not time to wonder whether your perspective is a little skewed?"
"Yes, Kratos has victimized plenty of vulnerable men throughout the games, but that is not laden with NEARLY the kind of problematic connotations that violence against vulnerable women brings.
You honestly can't see the differences between Kratos obliterating anoymous mooks, and Kratos assaulting and harming vulnerable, non-combatant women?"
I hope you're joking. How is what you're saying not sexist? You know, sexism doesn't mean "men being mean to women". No, i do not see a difference, please tell everybody how killing innocent women and killing "mooks" are not the same thing. You're justifying men being murdered, just because they're men. You know, women can wield weapons just as fine. Women can also have kids, after all men don't appear out of thin air.
At the basic level, we are all different, nobody's going to deny that. And we can't be treated equaly all the time. But at a high level, we can and should treat each other as equals. The value of a man's and woman's life should be the same. This is why calling out things like "minimizing sexism" at this level is inapropriate to say the least.
This is why i'm saying that we have easier issues to solve. This mentality is deeply engraved in everybody to a point where people don't even notice it, Philip is a great example, so are people who pressed "Like" on his comment. It's also the reason why Hewitt's doing this, it avoids him trouble from people who don't know better.
I think the problem here is that the devs aren't being clear in what they mean. Are they going to avoid including any kind of violence against women (including armed women or women-like creatures) because "you shouldn't hit girls", or are they going to avoid including specifically abusive violence (of a kind *not* also directed at male victims) against civilian women who posed no threat to Kratos? The former is clearly a subset of "chivalry"-style special treatment, but the latter is something else entirely.
Making a distinction between killing innocent men and innocent woman for the sake of 'not hitting girls' is sexist in my opinion. I think that Kratos is just a machine on a rampage that just kills everything on his path regardless of the gender or helplessness of his victims.
It would be a very different situation if Kratos would specifically abuse women and torture/rape them just for fun, then we would be talking about a whole different problem.
I believe that they can tackle the sexism issue with a different approach: Instead of making vulnerable women characters (hence reinforcing stereotypes), why don't have strong women characters facing Kratos just like any other male (or beast) character does?
There are many characters in greek mythology to draw from such as Amazons, Artemis, Demeter, Nymphs, Muses, Circe, Gorgons, etc... that would help to stand women and men on the same level as they actually should be. (I haven't played through the entire series so most likely many of these may have already appeared in the game)
When creating the mod DreamCasters' Duel I made sure that there was no replicable violence perpetrated by men against women. At the time I was teaching impressionable kids and witnessed firsthand how media depictions of violence against women influenced their behavior ("It's OK teacher! Men jump off tables and knee drop downed women on WWE all the time!"). When gratuitous violence went mainstream in the VG industry I thought that DCD's moral convictions might also make an interesting selling-point.
I was wrong. I approached battered women's organizations w/ carefully researched articles on cause and effect relationships between media portrayals of violence against women and real world incidences (all of which they were already aware of naturally) and VG media reels of women getting holes beat into their face by men (Blade and Soul, anyone?). I told them how DCD would be different. They wouldn't touch it. The reaction from girl gaming guilds and communities was much, much more emphatic. How dare I suggest that women were physically inferior? Was I not aware that keeping women from competing in men's sports was a vast conspiracy and that women will one day come to rule the UFC (I am NOT making this up)?
It doesn't matter who gets hurt (or killed; Zoe Garcia) or what the immutable facts are, suggesting that women are somehow physically inferior by not allowing them to be the victims of violence is sexist. Also, allowing them to be the victims of violence is sexist since that also implies physical inferiority.
Anyways, can we all please just move on and talk about a far more important issue, female body image issues in VGs? I mean, just look how Elena dresses!
I can only think David's revelation is caused by fear of backlash from advocacy groups, or some twisted sense of morality. With the amount of violence in the God of War games, it seems silly to take the position that it's okay to butcher males (as long as your avatar's animations don't reflect bloodlust), but that killing women is off limits. Last time I checked the lives of women and men were considered equal in value (middle east excluded). This argument is rooted in sexism. It's trying to compensate for thousands of years of it and I think it's just silly. Dismembering a man is just as offensive as dismembering a woman. The only way this would work is if there was a story-related cultural bias against the killing of women which was upheld by your character. As a general rule it's bullshit.
I realize he's talking about the new game, but uh... I can't be the only one who remembers the part in GoW 3 where you have to make that random innocent woman you're protecting get ground up in that gear mechanism in order to hold the next door open so you can progress, right? While you may not be personally sticking the knife in, you're very deliberating putting her through a gruesome death in order to achieve your goals.
It's such a vague statement that it could mean anything with regards to the female gender. Seems more like they're trying to spin the discussion going on and put themselves in a favorable light without really saying or commiting to anything.
Your example is a gruesome death, but not sexist. Not from what I can read out of the context you provided, at least.
Those will be some awkward sex QTEs...oh wait, they already were :P
Oh, wait...
Kratos have been dismembering weaker pawns since the first game. Should they get different treatment based on gender?
Trying to debate this makes my head hurt and i sincerely think that we have more easy to solve sexism issues. Let's cross that bridge when we get to it.
Cognitive dissonance, gotta scrub my cortex.
Yes, and these weaker pawns have included female opponents such as Sirens and Gorgons. Put women in armour, give them weapons, give them powers, give them the vaguest sense of competence, just like every enemy in the game, and no one will have a problem with Kratos butchering them like everything else.
But when SSM talk about not crossing a line, I think it's clear that they mean violence against VULNERABLE women. Yes, Kratos has victimized plenty of vulnerable men throughout the games, but that is not laden with NEARLY the kind of problematic connotations that violence against vulnerable women brings.
You honestly can't see the differences between Kratos obliterating anoymous mooks, and Kratos assaulting and harming vulnerable, non-combatant women?
And, also, seriously guys.
Ask yourselves why you're so indignant about the fact that you can't beat the shit out of women.
What, is kicking the crap out of men not satisfying enough for you, or something? Does Kratos specifically need to beat up on women in order for you to experience an adequate visceral thrill? Mangling and maiming ordinary mooks doesn't cut it for you, is that it? It needs to be women for you to derive that satisfaction?
If you're indulging in a martyr fantasy and thinking of yourself as oppressed because the battery of vulnerable women is frowned upon, is it not time to wonder whether your perspective is a little skewed?
Maybe. God of War sure ain't guilty of it, though. The series includes female adversaries that at least pose a rudimentary threat to Kratos.
"Cognitive dissonance, gotta scrub my cortex."
I think the more likely explanation is that most people recognize that sexism can't be defended, and so they misrepresent and minimize sexism, and attempt to sabotage the discussion instead.
What is indignant is the fact that when these subjects are touched there's a lot of condescension and approval-seeking on it's tail. Coupled with a bunch of preset assumptions and hidden false-premises trying to skip discussion in directions they could even head if properly conducted, for the sake of making unfunded arguments and emotional appeal sound cool.
"What, is kicking the crap out of men not satisfying enough for you, or something?"
No, Power Fantasy is not my genre of choice. It's just boring pointless escapism with no benefits for you mental fitness.
"Does Kratos specifically need to beat up on women in order for you to experience an adequate visceral thrill?"
Visceral thrill? No wonder why gaming still carry all these negative stigmas.
"Mangling and maiming ordinary mooks doesn't cut it for you, is that it?"
I've played God Of War a few times in friends houses, but I don't remember that part of the game. I think you mean watching Kratos mangling and maiming ordinary mooks, because I myself was just playing Simon.
"It needs to be women for you to derive that satisfaction?"
Which satisfaction? Pressing B and Y when you're told to?
"If you're indulging in a martyr fantasy and thinking of yourself as oppressed because the battery of vulnerable women is frowned upon, is it not time to wonder whether your perspective is a little skewed?"
Achievement Unlocked: Use "IF" in a sentence.
"Yes, Kratos has victimized plenty of vulnerable men throughout the games, but that is not laden with NEARLY the kind of problematic connotations that violence against vulnerable women brings.
You honestly can't see the differences between Kratos obliterating anoymous mooks, and Kratos assaulting and harming vulnerable, non-combatant women?"
I hope you're joking. How is what you're saying not sexist? You know, sexism doesn't mean "men being mean to women". No, i do not see a difference, please tell everybody how killing innocent women and killing "mooks" are not the same thing. You're justifying men being murdered, just because they're men. You know, women can wield weapons just as fine. Women can also have kids, after all men don't appear out of thin air.
At the basic level, we are all different, nobody's going to deny that. And we can't be treated equaly all the time. But at a high level, we can and should treat each other as equals. The value of a man's and woman's life should be the same. This is why calling out things like "minimizing sexism" at this level is inapropriate to say the least.
This is why i'm saying that we have easier issues to solve. This mentality is deeply engraved in everybody to a point where people don't even notice it, Philip is a great example, so are people who pressed "Like" on his comment. It's also the reason why Hewitt's doing this, it avoids him trouble from people who don't know better.
It would be a very different situation if Kratos would specifically abuse women and torture/rape them just for fun, then we would be talking about a whole different problem.
I believe that they can tackle the sexism issue with a different approach: Instead of making vulnerable women characters (hence reinforcing stereotypes), why don't have strong women characters facing Kratos just like any other male (or beast) character does?
There are many characters in greek mythology to draw from such as Amazons, Artemis, Demeter, Nymphs, Muses, Circe, Gorgons, etc... that would help to stand women and men on the same level as they actually should be. (I haven't played through the entire series so most likely many of these may have already appeared in the game)
edit: typo
I was wrong. I approached battered women's organizations w/ carefully researched articles on cause and effect relationships between media portrayals of violence against women and real world incidences (all of which they were already aware of naturally) and VG media reels of women getting holes beat into their face by men (Blade and Soul, anyone?). I told them how DCD would be different. They wouldn't touch it. The reaction from girl gaming guilds and communities was much, much more emphatic. How dare I suggest that women were physically inferior? Was I not aware that keeping women from competing in men's sports was a vast conspiracy and that women will one day come to rule the UFC (I am NOT making this up)?
It doesn't matter who gets hurt (or killed; Zoe Garcia) or what the immutable facts are, suggesting that women are somehow physically inferior by not allowing them to be the victims of violence is sexist. Also, allowing them to be the victims of violence is sexist since that also implies physical inferiority.
Anyways, can we all please just move on and talk about a far more important issue, female body image issues in VGs? I mean, just look how Elena dresses!
http://fast1.onesite.com/capcom-unity.com/user/roq/2510c5afd79d385df92688481ed7d
881.jpg?v=256800
Your example is a gruesome death, but not sexist. Not from what I can read out of the context you provided, at least.
Lets all ban Tomb Raider...we can't have a woman beating the crap out of guys all day, that is sexist!