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Valve's active interest in making you install Linux
Valve's active interest in making you install Linux
July 25, 2012 | By Frank Cifaldi

July 25, 2012 | By Frank Cifaldi
Comments
    64 comments
More: Console/PC, Indie, Business/Marketing



"Our perception is that one of the big problems holding Linux back is the absence of games. I think that a lot of people...don’t realize how critical games are as a consumer driver of purchases and usage."
- Valve co-founder Gabe Newell discusses how his company is actively encouraging more people to install open operating system Linux.

Newell says his cutting-edge company, which runs popular game distributor Steam and develops game series Half-Life, Portal and Team Fortress, needs an open environment in order to thrive, and that Microsoft's upcoming Windows 8 is "a catastrophe for everybody in the PC space" due to its relatively closed nature.

The company is putting the finishing touches on a native Linux version of its Steam client, as well as a port of its popular Left 4 Dead 2, as a first step toward supporting the platform.

It's almost inarguable that Valve kickstarted consumer acceptance for digitally distributed games, but can it do the unthinkable and make PC game players leave Windows behind?


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Comments


Lars Doucet
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I'm not sure if they can, but if anybody could, it would be Steam.

Since your Steam library follows you around, if a certain critical mass of games were to be ported over to Linux, then sure, I'd make the switch.

Then again, I'm a huge nerd.

Alex Boccia
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I'm going to buy another HD to run linux for my desktop and have steam on that. I know Gabe vocally expressed his disgust with the direction Microsoft took with Windows 8 and it would be interesting to see how well he can get the steam client to run on Linux. It will definitely be nice to not have to use PlayOnLinux to run my games on my laptop anymore.

Matt Fleming
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This would make me consider having a Linux box (probably my spare laptop) to test it out.

Philip Wilson
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...or just partition and dual boot your current machine if it can handle games ;)

Harlan Sumgui
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@philip, with w8 and uefi, dual booting wont be possible for a majority of pc users.

Pedro Rittner
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@Harlan this is simply not true. Linux providers such as Canonical and Redhat have purchased SecureBoot licenses and you will be able to dual-boot on those Windows 8 systems. The only systems for which there may be an issue are ARM systems.

Olivier Cornu
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I already spent most of my time under Linux and only reboot to play on Steam...

Jane Castle
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I wonder if Android and\or a more user friendly version of Linux will eventually replace Windows on the desktop?

Adam Bishop
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Not until someone can muscle Microsoft out of the corporate and government market which they currently dominate. The average user likely wants to use the same operating system at home and work, especially people who are not tremendously computer saavy.

Harlan Sumgui
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yeah, just like with phones and tablets. Nobody wants more than one ui. (sarcasm).

Arturo Nereu
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With easy to use Linux distros and a killer app(s) as Steam and it´s games. A new world of Windows-less computers may emerge for average users.

Glad to hear this.

Philip Wilson
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Ease of use? Dunno about that, try putting Linux on the desktop of the average joe at home and/or at work and see what happens.

Jane Castle
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Not only that all distros are not created equal and there is no consistency.

E Zachary Knight
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Philip,

Show that average user where Firefox, Libre Office and Gimp is and they will be happy.

Sergio Rosa
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I am the averange joe, I spent 1 week with Linux and went back to Windows.
I spend a few minutes with a Mac, and most of the stuff makes absolute sense.

I don't use a Mac because many of my tools are windows-only, though.

Alex Huang
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I think the majority of artists will agree with me when I say Gimp has horrible, broken UI and is no replacement for Photoshop. Also Corel Painter is not available in Linux.

Yes. I have tried Gimp for a couple of weeks. The UI is not intuitive and even Googling couldn't get me through simple tasks.

The main problem I have with Linux is the lack of device drivers. My past attempts at installing Linux usually made my graphics card or stylus non-functional. Installing Linux means that you have to give up the latest drivers because device manufacturers just won't bother to rewrite them for Linux.

The reason that Newell is unhappy with Windows 8 is obvious. Micro$oft wants to monopolize game distribution on the platform with the introduction of Windows Store. I think right now there is some uncertainty about what exactly will happen. But I think at the very least, steam will be forced to share a cut of its profit with M$FT.

Obviously, this could mean the end of Steam if they don't try to hedge their bets on something like Linux. I don't blame them, but as someone who is used to the convenience of Windows and dependent on Steam I am sad to see it come to this.

E Zachary Knight
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Alex,

Setting aside the whole "Gimp is not a good replacement for Photoshop" argument, Linux support from most hardware providers is actually pretty good right now.

Nvidia and most printer/scanner manufacturers are probably the biggest hurdles for a pain free Linux transition. Finding a good printer/scanner with out of the box Linux drivers is difficult, but not impossible.

Other than that, like I said, most hardware is plug and play on Linux.

Philip Wilson
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@Zachary: I've used Gimp...the UI is NOT that user friendly and as for Libre Office (or even OpenOffice), good luck trying to get 100% compatibility with Word and Excel docs. I've messed around with both with docs I personally have that aren't terribly complex and both programs have destroyed them due to LO & OO's inability to read tables properly.

Chris Moeller
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I like the direction they're going- even if it's entirely self motivated(digital distribution platform).

The latest distros of Ubuntu have really been working backwards though- try creating a desktop shortcut or equivalent of a "start menu shortcut"- drag and drop in Gnome2, but apparently "obsolete" in Gnome3 (or Unity).

If a company (such as Valve) can recommend a good distro to use, I'd wager a lot more people would try it out (due to being free).

They just really need to add back in basic functionality that 99% of "web only" users use, and back a certain distro.

Ask about the best distro to use on a linux forum, and they'll have 25 to chose from, with no clear winners for what they want (something they can transition to easily from windows).

I like mint 13 with 'MATE', since it's based on Ubuntu, and relatively easy to use. Still, some things you can't get working that take 10 seconds in windows, even with an hour of searching online.

Pedro Rittner
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>If a company (such as Valve) can recommend a good distro to use, I'd wager a lot more people would try it out (due to being free).

They have. If you read the original blog post, Valve has stated that they are officially porting Steam/L4D2 exclusively to Ubuntu 12.04 at first, explicitly for reasons of stability, but I find implicitly because it's got the largest reach and user-friendliest.

Your comment regarding Ubuntu "working backwards" I find hard to believe. As someone who uses Ubuntu on a regular basis and whose colleagues use Ubuntu in a professional capacity Unity has been largely seen as a way to help non-Linux users transition to the platform.

Duvelle Jones
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They are likely working with Ubuntu... which is kind of a bummer for me, a Fedora user.

Robert Green
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I think it's fairly obvious what's happening here. With Windows 8, Microsoft are putting their own app store front and centre, which is a huge threat to Steam. The problem is not, as Gabe seems to be suggesting, that Win8 will not have great game support, the problem is that they may be getting their games somewhere else.
I'm a long-term windows user with an android phone, but I think it's fairly obvious at this point that open systems are not something that's very high on the list of things consumers want in a platform. Nor is it something developers necessarily want. That basically leaves the minority of people like me who get some enjoyment from building their own PC. For everyone else, if being open doesn't make for a better product (witness the notebook market where Intel had to bribe the OEM's to start making macbook air clones), then what good is it?

Michael Rooney
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This is actually what I thought too. Has Gabe actually said what he thinks is terrible about it? I've heard him give the blanket "it's bad" quotes, but I haven't heard his specific complaints, which leads me to think the negativity is at least in part because it's a threat to Valve's business.

Bob Johnson
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Yeah he is afraid of a Netscape vs Internet Explorer situation. .

Kevin Alexander
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Its funny Microsoft didn't have this agenda back when they launched their Zune.

If every PC in the world all the sudden had windows media player turn into the Zune store after a particular update (even without the device), they would have definitely found more success.

Robert Green
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If I had to guess Kevin, I'd say that when the Zune was released, Microsoft were still at a point where they were concerned that any manoeuvre like that would end them up back in court on more monopoly charges.

These days, I think they're pretty much immune to that, with the enormous sales of iOS devices, where you can't even install an alternate browser (just skins on safari), let alone have one installed by default, showing that the majority of users actually don't mind monopolistic behaviour if it makes for a nicer UX.

I think what Gabe might have been getting at, in terms of the OEM's, is that Microsoft's entry into the tablet space puts them in direct competition with all their partners, and with an unfair advantage. Of course you could say the same about the Nexus 7 too, but let's leave google out of this for now. He's not wrong, either. If MS are able to sell a tablet that's a quality product that doesn't have to sell for a profit (since all app store sales go through them), then it will be very difficult for anyone to compete with that. But here's what's also true: most of these companies have been struggling in the past few years anyway. Even HP, while selling more PC's than anyone else, was considering getting out of that game because it wasn't profitable. Most of these companies have been unable to convince anyone to pay extra for a premium PC (few of which approach the level of quality of Apple products), and they were already losing to lower margin OEM's. So, in a way, all MS is doing is accelerating that trend, and offering a challenge to other PC manufacturers: If you can't put out something unique and interesting then no one will miss you when you're gone.

Michael Rooney
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Robert: We don't know the price of surface tablets, but I really doubt microsoft would price it's partners out of the market. That would be a terrible idea. What they'd gain in hardware sales they'd totally lose in marketshare and software sales as a result. They just don't have the capability to make enough surface tablets to fill the market.

Why would they want to compete with themselves really?

I think the goal of surface, besides being a flagship piece of hardware, is to establish a quality benchmark for other manufacturers to shoot for.

If you look at the Nexus phones, they aren't the best selling android phones, but they do an excellent job of establishing a feature/quality benchmark of what's possible on the phone.

Robert Green
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Couldn't you say the same thing about the Nexus 7 though? Apparently that's being sold essentially at cost, meaning that other manufacturers probably can't compete. And this was after working with Motorola (Xoom) and Samsung (Tab 10.1) previously, with little success. In that context, it looks less like they're trying to establish a benchmark and more like they've accepted that none of the big android OEM's were putting out anything that could actually compete in the market, and decided they'd have to do it themselves.

Similarly for MS, the question isn't so much why would they do it, but more why wouldn't they? If they believe they can profit from both the hardware and software, why not try? Because they might annoy their partners? So what, what are they going to do, switch to shipping tablets with android? They're already doing that. And on the desktop, no matter what Linux users might tell you, there isn't a viable alternative. So in the short term they stand to make more money doing this, and in the long term who knows? The world seems to be moving more towards embedded devices anyway, so the HP's and Dell's of this world are in trouble either way.

Michael Rooney
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The nexus 7 doesn't price anybody out. It's the same price as the kindle fire and nook tablets.

edit: And I told you the answer to the question "Why wouldn't they do it?" They don't have the manufacturing capacity to supply the world with surface tablets, so they'd either have to sacrifice marketshare or sacrifice hardware revenue for software revenue. The latter is probably better for them as software is the core of Microsoft's business.

double edit: To be clear, I think they'll price it competitively, and they'll put pressure on, but I don't think they'll sell at a loss hoping to subsidize losses with their app sales. I think they'll probably sell right around break even point.

Darcy Nelson
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For me, it's less "the lack of games" that keeps me from being a linux user, and more the recurring nightmares I still have from my one attempt to get a linux install running (circa 2005).

"Oh God, what do you mean there's no drivers for ANY OF MY HARDWARE?"

E Zachary Knight
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You must have been using some very obscure hardware then. I have been installing Linux (mostly Ubuntu) on a wide variety of hardware since about the same time and all but a handful of Nvidia cards has been plug and play. The Nvidia cards just needed proprietary drivers.

Darcy Nelson
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I don't THINK I was using anything crazy, but I did build that desktop myself, so I won't rule it out. I'm sure the newer distros are much friendlier, and it seems like support for Linux has certainly grown in the interim. Maybe I'll take another crack at it when I upgrade my desktop.

Evan Combs
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With me the problem with Linux is they tend to not do the little things, or they do but it is a very obscure and time consuming.

Cordero W
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Yeeeeah, no. As long as there's people, there will be people who want user-friendly OSes. Computers without Windows or Mac OS are just a wasteful mash of parts for the average person. A lot of the people who use Steam are tech savvy, so I can see what they are trying to do. But even then, the casual Steam user will want to stick to Windows. Only the hardcore will use Linux, if they haven't already.

Good attempt, but not realistic. The moment Linux becomes user-friendly, it's just another OS like Windows and Mac.

E Zachary Knight
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"The moment Linux becomes user-friendly, it's just another OS like Windows and Mac. "

And I still don't see why that is a problem.

Andrew Grapsas
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My fiancee, a psychologist, uses Ubuntu.

My neighbor, a dentist, uses Ubuntu.

They do it without help from me, the software engineer.

Kevin Alexander
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In all fairness, he did say it was just a hedge bet. He didn't outline it as a major initiative or anything.

Only the hardcore will be early adopters true, but that is inevitably how everything in nerd culture starts and gains momentum over time.

Chuck Bartholomew
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"The moment Linux becomes user-friendly, it's just another OS like Windows and Mac."

Am I the only one who remembers that the moment Linux became user-friendly it WAS a Mac?

Sergio Rosa
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"Windows 8 is a catastrophe for everybody in the PC space due to its relatively closed nature" says the man behind what many describe as the most closed PC game distribution platform...

Matt Cratty
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One is a digital rights platform. The other is an operating system.

Your point is meaningless. No offense intended.

Window's "store" will be just as "closed" and MUCH MUCH MUCH more oppressive if history is any indication.

Marco Castorina
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I think it's great to have a native version of Steam on Linux (being a Linux user myself) but we also need decent drivers for the most recent hardware in reasonable times if the transition to the Linux world for gamers has to happen. Maybe this will ignite a sort of self-sustaining loop: games on Linux -> people buy new hardware -> NVidia/Intel/AMD get sales -> they have funds to develop the drivers -> repeat

A S
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Nothing wrong with a bit of competition. Gaben thinks he knows the right thing to do and he's putting his money where his mouth is, good for him. While I personally think it's going to be tough to get developers to port to Linux, it sure as hell isn't going to happen unless people try. He'll either be right and the world will be better for it (more choice) or he'll be wrong and the market will teach him a lesson.

Andrew Grapsas
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Sweet! Two of my four boxes at home run Ubuntu. The Windows boxes still use MS products because I don't like any of the open source IDE's for C++, Java, C#, AS3, or HaXe development on Linux AND because most games do not support Linux.

Sadly, I've come to realize I really only enjoy playing indie games AND Valve games -- and the occassional exception, such as The Witcher and The Witcher 2; so, if Valve supports Linux and I can find an IDE I can live with, I might just switch all of my boxes over.

Duvelle Jones
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Which IDE do you use currently?

Andrew Grapsas
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FlashDevelop for AS3/HaXe and Visual Studio for C++, C#, etc.

I also use Eclipse for various things and consider it to be a horrible IDE.

I've played with MonoDevelop and it's okay; but, clunky compared to VS.

Michael van Drempt
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I hear a lot of complaints about MonoDevelop, but I found that MonoDevelop's better autocomplete system was a key selling point. Also faster workflow from its document switching shortcuts. The only thing I miss is side-by-side documents. Maybe I don't use as many advanced features as some do, though.

Andrew Grapsas
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The UI for MonoDevelop isn't as streamlined as Visual Studio. The autocomplete was pretty good; but, I don't recall it well enough to compare to VS. For tools development (which is what I use C# for) their visual GUI layout tools are subpar.

And, I know, I could go in and write a mess of code to help improve the project :) But, I seriously don't have time for that, as I imagine most of us game programmers don't.

Matt Cratty
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I cannot even post fully because I keep degrading into a 12 year-old style rant.

I'm with Gabe and I WILL NOT be purchasing that travesty. I can only hope they support both camps in future releases. I will not be participating in this one. I understand it as a financial decision. But, it doesn't make it any less "Jersey Housewives" for people that need more than Facebook tie-ins.

This is going to piss off enough people that maybe, just maybe we'll get a real competitor to the great bloated monopoly.

Troy Walker
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ya, i've just tried 3 times to write something without asking what Gabe's problem is...

I went to the dev sneak peek on Metro/Win 8... the stuff looks great for developers. I'm excited about it.

Michael Rooney
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Why do you think it's a travesty? A lot of the new features are pretty rad for both power and casual users.

k s
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Linux doesn't have a digital store front built into it like Win 8 and so Gabe wont have to compete with as many digital distributors. Gabe wants to maintain his monoply on PC gaming and it's getting harder with more people entering the space so he's looking for "greener pastures".

E Zachary Knight
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Actually, he is targeting Ubuntu at first which actually does have a built in store. Granted it is not as large as what Steam is and doesn't have the brand recognition yet, but it is there.

Chris Williams
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I've been using Linux since 1997 with Red Hat 5.something. It's been the complaint that If we had games on Linux, Linux would have a larger user base. This is true to a point. Look at how many people already use Linux and have a dual boot or another computer running Windows to play games. If we can play games on Linux and other companies follow suite and make Linux clients as well (Epic I'm talking about you since so many developers used the Unreal Engine) then we could drop our support of Microsoft and user base across all 3 operating systems would start to be seen as it really should be. As far as people saying that Linux isn't easy to use. Take any new computer user and ask them to use any computer, they will have problems. Many people already use Windows and any change is labeled not user friendly, the same idea applies for those that don't like GIMP vs Photoshop. I'm currently running Ubuntu 12.04 and the Gnome 3.2 interface which looks alot like a Mac. I'm going to college for Game Art and Animation, many Autodesk software packages run on Linux, Maya 2013 works flawless for me. With Adobe dropping support for Flash on Linux, I highly doubt Adobe will support the platform unless the user base becomes larger or more accurately accounted for. I'm done adding my 2 cents but I think it's a great start to expanding the Linux platform as a whole.

Michael van Drempt
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We've been seeing a push towards Linux support for a while now - look at the Humble Indie Bundle's requirement for Linux support, and Unity 4 saying they'll support Linux deployment, and now Steam.

So software makers are starting to take Linux seriously, and Ubuntu is starting the long-needed drive of taking the user experience seriously. That's two out of three for me. Once hardware manufacturers start taking Linux seriously and writing drivers, that will be the last hurdle gone for a lot of people.

Some developers may not care, but the anti-competitive war between Apple and Microsoft is only hurting the software industry, and the less dependent the market becomes on them, the more the benefits of open platforms can actually be seen. For good motives or ill, this is a good change.

william marsh
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I have reached the end of my desire to migrate up on Windows so call me a big supporter of moving the PC gaming environment to Linux. I don't really need a PC environment set up to compete with a phone interface. It makes no sense to me whatsoever.

The largest part of my game library is on Steam and TBH I have no desire to install a storefront for every major title I purchase. COD and Battlefield have lost their appeal entirely so the Steam library is my environment of choice.

Ian Brown
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My personal prediction, based on almost nothing at all, is that the Windows store will carry mostly cheaper, mobile-esque games at the sub $5 price point and Steam will remain dominant in the $10 to AAA realm. Steam has the social network, achievements etc, and its users seem particularly loyal to the service. Given a choice between buying their favourite FPS on Windows Store or Steam, they would probably choose Steam.

I don't see Windows 8 as being a catastrophe for 'everyone' because developers can now make a single build for Surface and Desktop, and have more avenues to distribute it through. Independents in particular will see the same cut (I guess) whether they use MS or Valve as a platform.

Nicholas Korn
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Are game developers going to want to switch to Linux? A few things that keep me from using Linux aside from having to dual boot into Windows for games are the lack of Visual Studio and being forced to use OpenGL when doing graphics programming.

Brian Ford
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Windows 8 looks and sounds overly pad centric. I do have a touch screen laptop and that is more of a novelty than anything. I actually feel touch screen devices are more toys to do menial task (like work) while any real meat and potato computing requires a good solid keyboard and mouse. There are so many things you can't do with a touch screen that MS didn't take into account when viciously reconfiguring Win 8's interface.

Steam's position, I must agree is the new built in app store is a threat to steam, but from a user perspective Win 8 is going on a direction that I am sure most users never ask for or will want. To be honest, I still lament that I can't get rid of the crappy Aero in Win 7 and just run the windows classic interface. I want my resources going towards apps, not glitzy manure to make my OS pretty.

Unless the linux community pulls together and comes out with something that looks and tastes like Office in a package that the consumer can easily swollow Windows 8 will sadly be the future. At that point, I think becoming a monk looks appealing.

Nate Anonymous
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Left 4 Dead 2 is a minor salvo. It´s a slightly-old game on an old gaming engine. The biggest problem with the argument of library lock-in (which gives Valve an advantage over its competitors Origin, GMG, Amazon, etc.) will prod gamers into Linux is that to encourage gamers to migrate over to the Linux platform based solely on the library alone, the bulk of Steams Windows games library also has to be ported over to Linux. Who is going to pay for this?

As most of the publishers would probably end up paying the same store tax with a Valve store as with a Microsoft store, there is no incentive for non-Valve publishers to eat the costs of porting, testing, etc their games to Linux as the current Linux install base is too small to envision enough revenue from new sales to offset the costs. In other words, all Valve is currently doing is offering Steam + Wine (non-Source Games) instead of Wine + Wine (Steam) + Wine (all Windows games).

The real salvo and the one I am predicting for Valve? Half-Life 3 for Linux. Optimum time for release? Q1 or Q2 2013 -- right around when the expected backlash to Windows 8 occurs. Obviously, the reason for Valve´s decision to delay Half-Life for years is probably because , like Half-Life 2, Valve is counting on its flagship title to push its new gaming engine. Source 2 perhaps? If studios, modders, and indies have access to a next-gen engine that is pre-cooked to work flawlessly with Linux and Steam, then the number of desireable mainstream games may increase enough to convince games to consider abandoning Windows and graphic card makers to finally adequately support Linux.

Plus, EA´s strategy of making Origin as Steam+ may force that publisher to also begin supporting Linux. If hypothetically Valve, Blizzard (who has their own digital distribution strategy), EA, and the indies (many of whom have already embraced Linux gaming) all begin supporting Linux gaming as a hedge to Windows Store, then that might be enough to tip the entire AAA-gaming industry into Linux support and/or force Microsoft into stepping back from its Store tax plans.

I think most of the PC gamers would happily not pay for Windows (through cheaper hardware or not buying Windows retail copies for self-built rigs) if they were confident they could run their games on Linux.

Alex Covic
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(I am no game-dev - using Linux for 20 yrs now - since Kernel 0.99)

Numbers. Look at the numbers. Look at the Linux desktop install base. Why would any Console/PC/Smartphone/Web game dev invest tons of money to additionally support a niche audience?

For Steam/Valve it makes sense. Their business is threatened by Microsofts move. But Steam/Valve would only benefit, not if they put their (or others) old games on a Linux OS, but if they would make a Steambox. Linux would run like a Linux-Live System, like the Google OS - hidden from the user.

But then, the Steam (fat) client has a couple years left - maybe a decade or two (depending how long it takes for Google (& competition) to push fiber through all of the big US cities?) - before the customers are using streaming services, exclusively? If retail is threatened by digital sales, I'd argue, fat clients (consoles/"Gaming" PCs) are threatended by remote data centers. All depending on bandwidth accessablility.

It is not the lack of games that is keeping Linux back. It is the lack of installs that is keeping Linux back on the Desktop (as Greg Kroah-Hartman said again two days ago). And then there is the X Windows System; SDL 2.0 no where to be seen, the Middleware, Framework & Library issues, the free/open source vs the commerce/propriatery religious war ... and the graphic drivers (Linus, famously giving Nvidia the finger 1-2 months ago) ... and the endless diversity of user-side hardware is not solved again, neither.

It's a long way for Linux as an option in production meetings, IMHO. I would not be surprised, if in a couple years it does not matter what OS people are running at home, because they just own streaming devices?

Majed Al-Aleeli
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I heard blizzard sales will also be affected, shouldn’t all these big companies back Linux and develop a user friendly version of Linux (friendly meaning very close to MS OS).
On a side note, isn’t this good opportunity for a Google to come out with a free PC OS? (why havnt they so far?)

Cody Scott
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I think MS Office and adobe software is more of a reason why linux isnt a go to OS for most. and as a 3d artist it not being able to support Maya, Photoshop ,Zbrush, etc. is enough reason to pray MS fixes all the problems with windows 8......and have none of you learned you only buy every other MS OS. you skip vista for 7 and you will skip 8 for 9 if you are smart. especially since really there is no reason to update yet.

Paul Grayston
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I have a few things to say really, why is this any different from Apple, and their own Store, its not as far as I can see and for the consumer this is going to be a major plus, finally Windows users will have access to their own apple store equivalent, in an easy to access and manage way..

If gabe is serious about Linux then they need to pick a single distribution and then be exclusive to it, there are far to many distributions, far to many variants, far to many people involved to be able to create a unified front.

Linux will only get a chance to rival windows and mac os if they all unite under a single OS, my vote would be for Ubuntu, its the only SO on par with windows in my opinion and Linux's only shot at really offering any kind of competition.

ian stansbury
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My big thing is "Who's getting Windows 8?". It probably isn't me. I have Android pads/phone now and win8 really isn't a desktop interface. I'll keep my dual boot win7/fedora for now mainly because I can't play Skyrim on Linux. If they force a shop into a win7 update I might drop it too.


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