Courtesy of the GDC Vault is this free video of the Game Developers Conference 2011 Game Design Challenge session.
Developers John Romero (Doom, Quake) Jenova Chen (Journey, flOw), and Jason Rohrer (Passage, Sleep is Death) presented to a standing-room only crowd three starkly different approaches to designing games as religions.
Romero simulated Christianity by mixing social media with physical play and requiring the winning apostle to kill Romero himself. Chen gamified the library of TED talks, adding social features to allow people to leave better feedback on how they've been influenced by certain speakers. Rohrer created a "holy object" Minecraft mod that existed on a single USB stick that people could only play in and alter once before passing it on to the next player.
Rohrer's winning concept went on to stir a bit of a holy war, as written by Wired's Jason Fagone, including the USB stick recipient's three month pilgrimage in Hawaii and a frantic online auction for the game.
Speaker(s): Eric Zimmerman, Jenova Chen, John Romero, Jason Rohrer
Company Name(s): Independent, thatgamecompany, Loot Drop, Independent
Track / Format: Game Design
About the GDC Vault
In addition to this presentation, the GDC Vault offers numerous other free videos, audio recordings, and slides from many of the recent GDC events, and the service offers even more members-only content for GDC Vault subscribers. Those who purchased All Access passes to events like GDC, GDC Europe, and GDC China already have full access to GDC Vault, and interested parties can apply for the individual subscriptions via a GDC Vault inquiry form.
Group subscriptions are also available: game-related schools and development studios who sign up for GDC Vault Studio Subscriptions can receive access for their entire office or company. More information on this option is available via an online demonstration, and interested parties can find out more here. In addition, current subscribers with access issues can contact GDC Vault admins.
Be sure to keep an eye on GDC Vault for even more new content, as GDC organizers will also archive videos, audio, and slides from other events like GDC China and GDC 2013. To stay abreast of all the latest updates to GDC Vault, be sure to check out the news feed on the official GDC website, or subscribe to updates via Twitter, Facebook, or RSS.
What a ridiculous idea. Somebody had some major balls and major arrogance to come up with an idea like this. Bigger than Christianity is ok, but bigger than Jesus is walking on very thin ice.
So, you think videogames are capable of converting an entire civilization (I mean the Romans, in particular) to an ideology, assuming you can make a videogame an ideology, of course, whcih I don't think is going to happen in the immediate future, much less the life of the universe. Not exact quote: the suns and stars will die, but my words will last forever.
"What a ridiculous idea. Somebody had some major balls and major arrogance to come up with an idea like this. Bigger than Christianity is ok, but bigger than Jesus is walking on very thin ice."
Sounds more like you're offended than anything else.
Damn riight, I'm offended. It's ridiculuos to say something can be bigger than God, which is what I believe Jesus to be. Why not bigger than consicousness or the the universe? Those things are fairly big. Certainly big enough to occupy puny human minds for quite some time.
Here's a secret: they don't care if you are offended. You know why? Because this challenge has nothing to do with you.
For someone who is so quick to dish out an terms like "major arrogance", you sure seem to have trouble understanding how ironic your accusations actually sound right now.
How is it arrogant to defend what I, and millions of people all over the world, believe in?
Saying that something can be bigger than Jesus is like saying, let's make a game prettier than your mother, which is a subtle way to say that she's ugly.
You seem threatened by the name Jesus. Why? Because He stands for Truth? Because he stands for morality? Because he fights for the poor and the social outcasts? People like Hispanics?
You do not need to fear Jesus. He's on your side. Suffered unto death for your sins. (Yeah, I know, there's no such thing as sin, right?)
Good try. Anyways, I just think its ironic that you call someone arrogant, yet can't seem to catch on to the fact that this article has nothing to do with you.
Perhaps you're the one who feels so threatened. Have you ever considered the possibility that someone who is so big and powerful doesn't really need you to defend him? Only someone who is struggling with their on views would need to try to validate them by "proving" or "defending" them to people who couldn't care less about them. Maybe this is more about you and your own insecurities?
It's not so much that Jesus needs to be defended. He is greater than all which is one of the reasons why only He is worth worshiping. However, what Heng is trying to share with you is not rooted from insecurities but rather from the great commission to spread the gospel truth. If someone called themselves a follower but didn't heed or obey the person they are following, aren't they being hypocrital? I believe all that Heng is doing is trying to help you to see the right view of Who Jesus Christ is. Until you have the right view of who He is, you will not see Him as great.
I understand many will tell us "Christians" to lighten up and get a sense of humor, and no harm was meant. But those who see the true value for what Jesus died for will not see it as a harmless joke.
If he is greater than all, Rey, then he doesn’t need defending. He can do perfectly fine by himself without us “puny humans” taking it personal every single time someone does or says something that doesn’t validate their beliefs. I mean…he is “all powerful” and “in control” right? The truth is, Heng, as well as anybody who holds a belief that they are unreasonably zealous about (whether it’s a particular religion or their favorite movie or video game), is insecure. What he is doing is not “fulfilling the Great Commission”. What he is doing is taking this personal when it has nothing to do with him.
Secondly, I don’t think that anyone here needs to be reminded what his “view” (or as you call it, the “right view”) of Jesus is. We all know what Christians believe. It’s not some hidden secret. You can go on continuing to appreciate what you think Jesus did for you, especially if that gives you more peace and psychological stability, but in the meantime, accept the fact that you can be just as happy in this life without everyone validating your views by agreeing with you.
-->Good try. Anyways, I just think its ironic that you call someone arrogant, yet can't seem to catch on to the fact that this article has nothing to do with you.
You repeatedly make the claim that I'm arrogant, but when I ask you how I am arrogant, you answer because I'm arrogant. You validate your assumption and continue to be ignorant of what the word arrogance means.
Seconnd, who does this article have to do with?
It's addressed to the Gamasutra community. I am part of that community. Therefore, it is addressing to me, isn't it? Or do see a flaw in my logic.
There are things in your post I agree with, and things I disagree with. However, I can definitely respect your honest and sincere attempt to understand people, spirituality, and religion more holistically because it all hints at something that’s important to our societal progress: inquiry and tolerance.
I’m not sure how much more direct I can be. I honestly think you are just avoiding my arguments, but since you’ve asked, I’ll restate it here: You are leveling the charge of arrogance at people who are participating in a challenge/game that is not about you. The fact that you think any mention of Jesus or Christianity in a secular setting warrants a “come-to-the-rescue defense” of your views leads me to wonder if you are the one who is struggling with arrogance, as well as a little insecurity.
And yes, it’s addressed to the Gamasutra community, not the Christian church. And yes, there are Christians within this community, as well as many other people with various views. Including Christian Philippe Guay here, who doesn’t really share the same views about Jesus that you do. He’s views seem to line up more closely to that of a modern gnostic, something that John spoke against in the book of 1st John. But at least he’s more open in his views than you are.
If you are incapable of processing the world without removing your religious frames, then that is going to lead to much bigger problems than just a “flaw in your logic.”
-->The fact that you think any mention of Jesus or Christianity in a secular setting warrants a “come-to-the-rescue defense” of your views leads me to wonder if you are the one who is struggling with arrogance, as well as a little insecurity.
You can't seem to make up your mind, Ramon. Am I arrogant and insecure or not? First, you say that I am, then you say "..leads me to wonder if you... arrogant and insecure".
How did you get into the videogame industry? Are you a janitor or a programmer? Cause your logic is really poor. This is fact, not critiicism. Read over what you've written and think a little bit before you write. Please? With cherry on top.
-->Including Christian Philippe Guay here, who doesn’t really share the same views about Jesus that you do.
Here we go again. Assumptions. You know what they say when people assumes. The three syllables are built into that word. What kind of differences do you think there are between me and Christian, pray tell?
-->But at least he’s more open in his views than you are
It's good to be open. However, there is a point when being open lets your brain falls out.
-->He can do perfectly fine by himself without us “puny humans” taking it personal every single time someone does or says something that doesn’t validate their beliefs.
You are offended by the term "puny humans" , which isn't what I actually said (I said puny human minds). If you need convincing, let's compare yourself to the Grand Canyon. How big are you now? Quite small right? Now, consider standing side by side with the universe. How big are you now? Quite puny if I know anything about the size of the universe. You don't need to feel ashamed. Your picture looks like a big boy. I would guess that you are at least six feet.
-->Good try. Anyways, I just think its ironic that you call someone arrogant, yet can't seem to catch on to the fact that this article has nothing to do with you.
What do you think I was trying to do when you say "good try"? Are you afraid of being converted to a moral human being? That's essentially what Christianity is. Jesus came not to abolish the Laws, but to fulfull it. He is the perfection of the Law.
-->You can go on continuing to appreciate what you think Jesus did for you, especially if that gives you more peace and psychological stability, but in the meantime, accept the fact that you can be just as happy in this life without everyone validating your views by agreeing with you.
Have you really read the Gospels I wonder? Jesus didn't come to bring happiness. The Bible is not about happiness. That's Budddhist psychology. Instead, it is the sword. Division. Brother against brother, sister against mother, father against son. Again, perfection of the Law.
Arrogance and insecurity are two sides of the same coin: excessive self-centeredness. The idea that arrogance is simply an expression of insecurity is not something that I just came up with. Are you arguing that they are not related?
And I find it quite interesting that you attempt to take shots at my intelligence by asking if I’m a “janitor” (you just basically called all janitors stupid, but I’ll let you defend that yourself). Just like the attempt to level a veiled insult at my pic by calling it a “mugshot”. For someone who claims to be following Jesus, you don’t seem to do a good job at representing him. It’s also another indication that 1) you are running out of valid responses, so you are trying to distract from the issue, and 2) that you are overcompensating for your insecurities. But as I said in another post, I’m not going to get caught up in your attempts to change the subject, so moving on.
“You are offended by the term "puny humans", which isn't what I actually said (I said puny human minds). If you need convincing, let's compare yourself to the Grand Canyon. How big are you now? Quite small right? Now, consider standing side by side with the universe. How big are you now? Quite puny if I know anything about the size of the universe. You don't need to feel ashamed. Your picture looks like a big boy. I would guess that you are at least six feet.”
Nope, not offended at all. I didn’t say you said “puny humans”. It just represents a sentiment that religious people have about humans vs. (insert deity here). Nothing new. I have no problem accepting that I am very small in relation to most of everything else in the universe. At what point did I mention anything about having a problem (or feeling “threatened”, as you put it) with how I relate to the universe? I’m referring to our relation to your (conveniently) silent and invisible friend who, for some odd reason, needs “puny you” to defend him.
“What do you think I was trying to do when you say "good try"? Are you afraid of being converted to a moral human being? That's essentially what Christianity is. Jesus came not to abolish the Laws, but to fulfull it. He is the perfection of the Law.”
I’m saying “good try”, because it’s just another attempt to change the subject. I could care less about any of the things you are saying there. Moving on.
“Have you really read the Gospels I wonder? Jesus didn't come to bring happiness. The Bible is not about happiness. That's Budddhist psychology. Instead, it is the sword. Division. Brother against brother, sister against mother, father against son. Again, perfection of the Law.”
Trust me. I know more about your books than you probably think I do. Nothing you’ve said in this discussion is new to me. Secondly, I never said that the “Bible is about happiness”. I don’t care about how you view your book, because it has nothing to do with what I’m talking about. What I actually said was that if your views of your deity bring you more peace and psychological stability, then go ahead, but just accept that you can be fine without other people having to care.
You got a lot of hate in you, bub. What is hate? Same thing as indifference, which is your defense of everything logical I say. You are in denial like a lot of pagans are when they feel threatened about their world views. I can understand that. It's not easy to change one's world view. In order to change, you have to be submit to humility. Jesus says, "It's easier for a camel to enter the eye of the needle then for a rich man to enther the kingdom of heaven." Do you know what this is saying? You are rich with hatred. You have to get rid of that before Jesus can be a part of your life. Again, you don't have to fear Jesus. He's on your side. Suffered unto death for our continued sins.
You do have a valid point about me being not a good representation of the model Christain, which in your mind are somehow all supposed to be saints. No, I am not a saint, Ramon. That's why I need salvation as much as you do. I am not one to be bullied though. LIved a good part of my life being bullied by insecure people. You are the one who fired the first shot (re: severly limited view of what art is; you have difficulty understanding English I am afraid to say; this is simply fact.)
It does not follow that what I said about janitors in any way implies that they are stupid people. You keep putting words in my mouth. I used to be a janitor once upon a time. It's a perfectly valid job. Doesn't pay much though. That's the problem and the reason why most people cannot be janitors. Why? Because it precludes having a stable family living.
I hope you find Jesus someday and become a part of God's family like He originally intended for us all to be. Good luck, man.
“You got a lot of hate in you, bub. What is hate? Same thing as indifference, which is your defense of everything logical I say. You are in denial like a lot of pagans are when they feel threatened about their world views. I can understand that. It's not easy to change one's world view. In order to change, you have to be submit to humility. “
If saying that makes you feel like you are right, then cool, go ahead. I think we both know who’s been avoiding things here, friend.
“You do have a valid point about me being not a good representation of the model Christain, which in your mind are somehow all supposed to be saints. No, I am not a saint, Ramon. That's why I need salvation as much as you do. I am not one to be bullied though. LIved a good part of my life being bullied by insecure people.”
Good, so are you now admitting that you aren’t capable of having an honest discussion due to your problems? Apparently the “insecurity” of your former bully friends rubbed off on you, I guess.
“You are the one who fired the first shot (re: severly limited view of what art is; you have difficulty understanding English I am afraid to say; this is simply fact.)”
I’m guessing that it’s so easy to forget. Perhaps you should read the very first comment in this discussion? You started by accusing everyone who created and participated in this challenge “arrogant”. Look, pal, if you can’t handle the heat, you shouldn’t have struck the match. Like I said, pretty much most of what you’ve said here indicates that you are the one with the arrogance problem. Like you said, you’re offended, because people don’t agree with you about your chosen deity. Again, get over yourself.
“It does not follow that what I said about janitors in any way implies that they are stupid people. You keep putting words in my mouth. I used to be a janitor once upon a time. It's a perfectly valid job. Doesn't pay much though. That's the problem and the reason why most people cannot be janitors. Why? Because it precludes having a stable family living.”
Good attempt at trying to clean it up now. You’re the one who said it, not me. What you said is what you said, don’t back down now.
"I hope you find Jesus someday and become a part of God's family like He originally intended for us all to be. Good luck, man."
Been there, done that. I love this passive-aggressive thing you've got going throughout all of your comments too. Anyways, I hope you learn a little more tolerance, and accept that the world doesn’t have to be “arrogant” just to disagree with you. That mentality, in and of itself, is arrogant, which is where we started. But of course, you'll likely never realize this, because....your right, right? At least learn to be happy on your own.
I am fairly sure, 99,9% sure, you'll respond to this, so I'll just drop this last thing and let you have the last word. Ok, bub?
It's ok to admit the truth. Jesus is there for you. I know because my pastor told me so. I would not lie to you about that. You know well what the truth is, so I won't reitarate it for you. A good way to come to grips with it is to sit in a quiet place and meditate. Me, persoanlly, I like to turn the lights down low, sit in my comfort chair, and hold to my favorite controller. Just an idea. You don't have to do as I suggest, but I suggest you do.
Yeah, you're right though. You're not that puny. I just noticed the picture. Did you do Photoshop, btw? Just curious.
This may sound hostile, but I am trying to get at the heart of the matter and not avoid serious discussion with like intelligence by deflectioni.
Your comment is slightly more respectful and tolerant than your very first comment in which you accused people with a different worldview of being “arrogant”, so its obvious that you are now backing down instead of answering many of my challenges, resorting to sarcasm and condescension (perhaps you think it makes you seem much more in control than you actually are) and then running away. That's fine. I hope you learn something from this.
Anyways, this is like your, what, 3rd attempt at turning the discussion into some kind of evangelism session? Sorry, but your views, in my opinion, are outdated and irrelevant now. I don’t need them, and you don’t either, but I doubt that I’ll be able to convince you of that (I’ve no interest to, either). If it continues to grant you peace and emotional stability then go ahead.
This could be a good opportunity for these legends in indie development to concoct a spiritual, existential experience which we have not sensed before... unfortunately, the naming conventions of such events are still stuck in the primordial mud.
But yeah, they wouldn't pick any other religious figure...
See the wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_popular_than_Jesus
So, you think videogames are capable of converting an entire civilization (I mean the Romans, in particular) to an ideology, assuming you can make a videogame an ideology, of course, whcih I don't think is going to happen in the immediate future, much less the life of the universe. Not exact quote: the suns and stars will die, but my words will last forever.
Sounds more like you're offended than anything else.
Damn riight, I'm offended. It's ridiculuos to say something can be bigger than God, which is what I believe Jesus to be. Why not bigger than consicousness or the the universe? Those things are fairly big. Certainly big enough to occupy puny human minds for quite some time.
For someone who is so quick to dish out an terms like "major arrogance", you sure seem to have trouble understanding how ironic your accusations actually sound right now.
Saying that something can be bigger than Jesus is like saying, let's make a game prettier than your mother, which is a subtle way to say that she's ugly.
You seem threatened by the name Jesus. Why? Because He stands for Truth? Because he stands for morality? Because he fights for the poor and the social outcasts? People like Hispanics?
You do not need to fear Jesus. He's on your side. Suffered unto death for your sins. (Yeah, I know, there's no such thing as sin, right?)
Perhaps you're the one who feels so threatened. Have you ever considered the possibility that someone who is so big and powerful doesn't really need you to defend him? Only someone who is struggling with their on views would need to try to validate them by "proving" or "defending" them to people who couldn't care less about them. Maybe this is more about you and your own insecurities?
It's not so much that Jesus needs to be defended. He is greater than all which is one of the reasons why only He is worth worshiping. However, what Heng is trying to share with you is not rooted from insecurities but rather from the great commission to spread the gospel truth. If someone called themselves a follower but didn't heed or obey the person they are following, aren't they being hypocrital? I believe all that Heng is doing is trying to help you to see the right view of Who Jesus Christ is. Until you have the right view of who He is, you will not see Him as great.
I understand many will tell us "Christians" to lighten up and get a sense of humor, and no harm was meant. But those who see the true value for what Jesus died for will not see it as a harmless joke.
If he is greater than all, Rey, then he doesn’t need defending. He can do perfectly fine by himself without us “puny humans” taking it personal every single time someone does or says something that doesn’t validate their beliefs. I mean…he is “all powerful” and “in control” right? The truth is, Heng, as well as anybody who holds a belief that they are unreasonably zealous about (whether it’s a particular religion or their favorite movie or video game), is insecure. What he is doing is not “fulfilling the Great Commission”. What he is doing is taking this personal when it has nothing to do with him.
Secondly, I don’t think that anyone here needs to be reminded what his “view” (or as you call it, the “right view”) of Jesus is. We all know what Christians believe. It’s not some hidden secret. You can go on continuing to appreciate what you think Jesus did for you, especially if that gives you more peace and psychological stability, but in the meantime, accept the fact that you can be just as happy in this life without everyone validating your views by agreeing with you.
You repeatedly make the claim that I'm arrogant, but when I ask you how I am arrogant, you answer because I'm arrogant. You validate your assumption and continue to be ignorant of what the word arrogance means.
Seconnd, who does this article have to do with?
It's addressed to the Gamasutra community. I am part of that community. Therefore, it is addressing to me, isn't it? Or do see a flaw in my logic.
There are things in your post I agree with, and things I disagree with. However, I can definitely respect your honest and sincere attempt to understand people, spirituality, and religion more holistically because it all hints at something that’s important to our societal progress: inquiry and tolerance.
I’m not sure how much more direct I can be. I honestly think you are just avoiding my arguments, but since you’ve asked, I’ll restate it here: You are leveling the charge of arrogance at people who are participating in a challenge/game that is not about you. The fact that you think any mention of Jesus or Christianity in a secular setting warrants a “come-to-the-rescue defense” of your views leads me to wonder if you are the one who is struggling with arrogance, as well as a little insecurity.
And yes, it’s addressed to the Gamasutra community, not the Christian church. And yes, there are Christians within this community, as well as many other people with various views. Including Christian Philippe Guay here, who doesn’t really share the same views about Jesus that you do. He’s views seem to line up more closely to that of a modern gnostic, something that John spoke against in the book of 1st John. But at least he’s more open in his views than you are.
If you are incapable of processing the world without removing your religious frames, then that is going to lead to much bigger problems than just a “flaw in your logic.”
You can't seem to make up your mind, Ramon. Am I arrogant and insecure or not? First, you say that I am, then you say "..leads me to wonder if you... arrogant and insecure".
How did you get into the videogame industry? Are you a janitor or a programmer? Cause your logic is really poor. This is fact, not critiicism. Read over what you've written and think a little bit before you write. Please? With cherry on top.
-->Including Christian Philippe Guay here, who doesn’t really share the same views about Jesus that you do.
Here we go again. Assumptions. You know what they say when people assumes. The three syllables are built into that word. What kind of differences do you think there are between me and Christian, pray tell?
-->But at least he’s more open in his views than you are
It's good to be open. However, there is a point when being open lets your brain falls out.
-->He can do perfectly fine by himself without us “puny humans” taking it personal every single time someone does or says something that doesn’t validate their beliefs.
You are offended by the term "puny humans" , which isn't what I actually said (I said puny human minds). If you need convincing, let's compare yourself to the Grand Canyon. How big are you now? Quite small right? Now, consider standing side by side with the universe. How big are you now? Quite puny if I know anything about the size of the universe. You don't need to feel ashamed. Your picture looks like a big boy. I would guess that you are at least six feet.
-->Good try. Anyways, I just think its ironic that you call someone arrogant, yet can't seem to catch on to the fact that this article has nothing to do with you.
What do you think I was trying to do when you say "good try"? Are you afraid of being converted to a moral human being? That's essentially what Christianity is. Jesus came not to abolish the Laws, but to fulfull it. He is the perfection of the Law.
-->You can go on continuing to appreciate what you think Jesus did for you, especially if that gives you more peace and psychological stability, but in the meantime, accept the fact that you can be just as happy in this life without everyone validating your views by agreeing with you.
Have you really read the Gospels I wonder? Jesus didn't come to bring happiness. The Bible is not about happiness. That's Budddhist psychology. Instead, it is the sword. Division. Brother against brother, sister against mother, father against son. Again, perfection of the Law.
Arrogance and insecurity are two sides of the same coin: excessive self-centeredness. The idea that arrogance is simply an expression of insecurity is not something that I just came up with. Are you arguing that they are not related?
And I find it quite interesting that you attempt to take shots at my intelligence by asking if I’m a “janitor” (you just basically called all janitors stupid, but I’ll let you defend that yourself). Just like the attempt to level a veiled insult at my pic by calling it a “mugshot”. For someone who claims to be following Jesus, you don’t seem to do a good job at representing him. It’s also another indication that 1) you are running out of valid responses, so you are trying to distract from the issue, and 2) that you are overcompensating for your insecurities. But as I said in another post, I’m not going to get caught up in your attempts to change the subject, so moving on.
“You are offended by the term "puny humans", which isn't what I actually said (I said puny human minds). If you need convincing, let's compare yourself to the Grand Canyon. How big are you now? Quite small right? Now, consider standing side by side with the universe. How big are you now? Quite puny if I know anything about the size of the universe. You don't need to feel ashamed. Your picture looks like a big boy. I would guess that you are at least six feet.”
Nope, not offended at all. I didn’t say you said “puny humans”. It just represents a sentiment that religious people have about humans vs. (insert deity here). Nothing new. I have no problem accepting that I am very small in relation to most of everything else in the universe. At what point did I mention anything about having a problem (or feeling “threatened”, as you put it) with how I relate to the universe? I’m referring to our relation to your (conveniently) silent and invisible friend who, for some odd reason, needs “puny you” to defend him.
“What do you think I was trying to do when you say "good try"? Are you afraid of being converted to a moral human being? That's essentially what Christianity is. Jesus came not to abolish the Laws, but to fulfull it. He is the perfection of the Law.”
I’m saying “good try”, because it’s just another attempt to change the subject. I could care less about any of the things you are saying there. Moving on.
“Have you really read the Gospels I wonder? Jesus didn't come to bring happiness. The Bible is not about happiness. That's Budddhist psychology. Instead, it is the sword. Division. Brother against brother, sister against mother, father against son. Again, perfection of the Law.”
Trust me. I know more about your books than you probably think I do. Nothing you’ve said in this discussion is new to me. Secondly, I never said that the “Bible is about happiness”. I don’t care about how you view your book, because it has nothing to do with what I’m talking about. What I actually said was that if your views of your deity bring you more peace and psychological stability, then go ahead, but just accept that you can be fine without other people having to care.
You got a lot of hate in you, bub. What is hate? Same thing as indifference, which is your defense of everything logical I say. You are in denial like a lot of pagans are when they feel threatened about their world views. I can understand that. It's not easy to change one's world view. In order to change, you have to be submit to humility. Jesus says, "It's easier for a camel to enter the eye of the needle then for a rich man to enther the kingdom of heaven." Do you know what this is saying? You are rich with hatred. You have to get rid of that before Jesus can be a part of your life. Again, you don't have to fear Jesus. He's on your side. Suffered unto death for our continued sins.
You do have a valid point about me being not a good representation of the model Christain, which in your mind are somehow all supposed to be saints. No, I am not a saint, Ramon. That's why I need salvation as much as you do. I am not one to be bullied though. LIved a good part of my life being bullied by insecure people. You are the one who fired the first shot (re: severly limited view of what art is; you have difficulty understanding English I am afraid to say; this is simply fact.)
It does not follow that what I said about janitors in any way implies that they are stupid people. You keep putting words in my mouth. I used to be a janitor once upon a time. It's a perfectly valid job. Doesn't pay much though. That's the problem and the reason why most people cannot be janitors. Why? Because it precludes having a stable family living.
I hope you find Jesus someday and become a part of God's family like He originally intended for us all to be. Good luck, man.
“You got a lot of hate in you, bub. What is hate? Same thing as indifference, which is your defense of everything logical I say. You are in denial like a lot of pagans are when they feel threatened about their world views. I can understand that. It's not easy to change one's world view. In order to change, you have to be submit to humility. “
If saying that makes you feel like you are right, then cool, go ahead. I think we both know who’s been avoiding things here, friend.
“You do have a valid point about me being not a good representation of the model Christain, which in your mind are somehow all supposed to be saints. No, I am not a saint, Ramon. That's why I need salvation as much as you do. I am not one to be bullied though. LIved a good part of my life being bullied by insecure people.”
Good, so are you now admitting that you aren’t capable of having an honest discussion due to your problems? Apparently the “insecurity” of your former bully friends rubbed off on you, I guess.
“You are the one who fired the first shot (re: severly limited view of what art is; you have difficulty understanding English I am afraid to say; this is simply fact.)”
I’m guessing that it’s so easy to forget. Perhaps you should read the very first comment in this discussion? You started by accusing everyone who created and participated in this challenge “arrogant”. Look, pal, if you can’t handle the heat, you shouldn’t have struck the match. Like I said, pretty much most of what you’ve said here indicates that you are the one with the arrogance problem. Like you said, you’re offended, because people don’t agree with you about your chosen deity. Again, get over yourself.
“It does not follow that what I said about janitors in any way implies that they are stupid people. You keep putting words in my mouth. I used to be a janitor once upon a time. It's a perfectly valid job. Doesn't pay much though. That's the problem and the reason why most people cannot be janitors. Why? Because it precludes having a stable family living.”
Good attempt at trying to clean it up now. You’re the one who said it, not me. What you said is what you said, don’t back down now.
"I hope you find Jesus someday and become a part of God's family like He originally intended for us all to be. Good luck, man."
Been there, done that. I love this passive-aggressive thing you've got going throughout all of your comments too. Anyways, I hope you learn a little more tolerance, and accept that the world doesn’t have to be “arrogant” just to disagree with you. That mentality, in and of itself, is arrogant, which is where we started. But of course, you'll likely never realize this, because....your right, right? At least learn to be happy on your own.
I am fairly sure, 99,9% sure, you'll respond to this, so I'll just drop this last thing and let you have the last word. Ok, bub?
It's ok to admit the truth. Jesus is there for you. I know because my pastor told me so. I would not lie to you about that. You know well what the truth is, so I won't reitarate it for you. A good way to come to grips with it is to sit in a quiet place and meditate. Me, persoanlly, I like to turn the lights down low, sit in my comfort chair, and hold to my favorite controller. Just an idea. You don't have to do as I suggest, but I suggest you do.
Yeah, you're right though. You're not that puny. I just noticed the picture. Did you do Photoshop, btw? Just curious.
This may sound hostile, but I am trying to get at the heart of the matter and not avoid serious discussion with like intelligence by deflectioni.
Fire away, champ. I konw all too well you will.
Your comment is slightly more respectful and tolerant than your very first comment in which you accused people with a different worldview of being “arrogant”, so its obvious that you are now backing down instead of answering many of my challenges, resorting to sarcasm and condescension (perhaps you think it makes you seem much more in control than you actually are) and then running away. That's fine. I hope you learn something from this.
Anyways, this is like your, what, 3rd attempt at turning the discussion into some kind of evangelism session? Sorry, but your views, in my opinion, are outdated and irrelevant now. I don’t need them, and you don’t either, but I doubt that I’ll be able to convince you of that (I’ve no interest to, either). If it continues to grant you peace and emotional stability then go ahead.
Peace.