"No one's complaining about not being able to trade iOS games."
- Avalanche Studios CTO Linus Blomberg
Speaking with GamingBolt, Avalanche Studios co-founder and CTO Linus Blomberg remarked that the Xbox One's [X]bone of contention wasn't its proposed used games policy, but the price point.
"No one's complaining about not being able to trade iOS games," he said. "Naturally that's because they are much cheaper, but if second hand games contributed to the income of triple-A game developers, then they could become cheaper too."
"The economies in games are changing," said Blomberg. "They have to be in order to be sustainable."
A recent academic study explored the impact that used games have on the marketplace, and found that if console manufacturers eliminated used game sales, the move could benefit the game industry -- but only if prices of games came down as well.
"No one's complaining about not being able to trade iOS games."
Obviously he missed the part where the issue centers around physical copies of games and not digital.
How is that any different than PC games? I can go to the store and buy a physical disk for Skyrim for my PC, but once I've registered the code on steam (required), I can't resell it. The disk is for install purposes only.
People seem to be missing the fact that this console generation is championing digital distribution as the primary format. The disks you buy in store are for everyone who doesn't understand what that means and prefers to have something tangible. The disks are also useful for those who have data caps on their internet and can't afford large downloads.
The "used game" controversy is peanuts compared to how the general public would react if they had clue what this was really all about.
There's also the question of pricing models iOS games tend to follow the FtP model so they monetize differently.
I plunk down $60 for a game, maybe I'm going to buy less games if I can't recoup some of my investment reselling it.
This establishes a dreadful risk-aversion feedback loop. Because consumers become tighter with their dollars, games that push the envelope anything less than perfectly will have a steeper time making a profit, so companies won't want to *try* pushing the envelope. More emphasis on splashy graphics to the determent of story and gameplay. Just like the film industry. [sigh]
The only bright side is this opens room for indies to prosper.
There was a time when not having to waste digital bandwidth to download big games was a concern, but as broadband becomes more and more widespread, that's a problem for fewer and fewer prople. The thing is, most of the people who still prefer a phyisical disc for their console games do so precisely because of the advantages a pysical copy offers over digital. These people have been complaining to their friends for years about buying a game disc only to find out that it's just an installer for digital without even the benefit of a manual. As more and more PC games drifted to that model, they drifted more and more to consoles. Now the consoles are doing the same thing? Of course they're upset. Yes, lower prices would mitigate their bitterness, sure, and maybe even eventually bring them into the circle around the digital group's campfire, but right now they see losing a cornerstone of thei subculture rather than seeing all the advantages digital distibution provides in exchange for what they are giving up.
Some people seem to really struggle to understand this. Not sure if big publishers and console makers belong to that group or if they're just trying to snatch up a bigger chunk of the pie and hope no one complains.
"then they could become cheaper too."
I also have to question this idea. Does anyone actually believe that if Sony or Microsoft or whoever else were to actually take a solid bite out of used sales that prices would suddenly decrease? Because last time I checked reduced competition also meant reduced pressure to lower prices, not the other way around.
Are we to rely on them to reduce prices for the end consumer out of the goodness of their hearts?
If that reduced competition results in fewer purchases, then yes, a price drop will happen. Will it result in lower out of the gate prices for games? Probably not. But it will result in quicker price drops after launch.
I think everything is possible, that we get lower prices or that we don't. I fear that the games sales will decline (as they already do) and the industry will analyze it and draw the wrong conclusions. I wonder how much of the current declines are already due to the hidden price increases (1 time DLC codes etc.). They will say that consumers only want to buy AAA CoD games and nothing else anymore, while the consumers just get very very picky due to high prices.
And one thing that I realized yesterday when I opened my DarkSiders2 box and had to enter 3 codes, which just unlocked something that was already on the disc, is that it is getting more and more inconvenient for the customer.
It used to be that pirated things (games, music, video) where inferior to the originals. But with all that restrictions and in an all download world the pirated copies are offering already a better user experience...
For me its the little things too, when I watch blue rays and can't skip the "piracy warnings" I sometimes get so angry why they force the paying customers to few that, the pirates don't watch it!!!!!!!
And now I see an even darker future for the user experience. And maybe, when Sony decides to joins in, this might lead to Nintendo's victory.
"Will it result in lower out of the gate prices for games? Probably not. But it will result in quicker price drops after launch."
Neither will occur. This is plainly obvious to anyone who has been paying attention to the prices of digitally distributed console games versus their physical counterparts. Here are a couple of examples from today:
Halo 4: Amazon $28, XBox Marketplace $40
Black Ops II: Amazon $38, XBox Marketplace $60
Bioshock Infinite: Amazon $40, XBox Marketplace $60
Batman AC: Amazon $15 (GOTY), XBox Marketplace $20 (Standard)
And on and on. So the publishers are keeping the digital distribution prices high even though there is strong competition from retail, and the retail version also has more value to the consumer (because it can be loaned or resold).
But you're suggesting that once that competition from used games is eliminated, the publishers will be compelled to lower their prices? Less competition = lower prices? No, that will not happen.
iOS games general are low quality and only a $1. A used iOS market doesn't make sense. If the plan is to phase out physical distribution, then do it already. Drop the price on AAA titles down to $30 on release and release them digitally only.
The problem is that these companies don't seem to understand the consumer. The reason people buy a video game console is to save money on video games. Traditionally consoles have been higher technology then our computers at a lower price point. But what we are being introduced is basically an over priced low end PC with a bunch of highly restrictive DMR on it. There is no incentive for the consumer to buy the product. The console is going to die, but not because we've outgrown the idea of consoles, but because the industry has forgot what a console is.
Well last time I check their is the company called Nintendo who seems to have the right idea. Yet it seems every one in the western gaming industry want them to go the way of the dinosaur. You can't have it both ways!
To me not being able to trade iOS games is also a problem, but of course, instead of allowing everyone to trade, their solution is to say that others are doing it too, so it should be allowed for them too.
I don't worry about trading my iOS games in because they cost me $.99. I do think it is stupid I can't hand most of the games to my kids though and they can play their own profile though... so I usually don't share if it is a game I like and don't want them to mess up. That's fine. They don't need nostalgia getting them to buy these games again in 10 years...
Being a long time console fan I eagerly awaited a price drop for the 360 and ps3 versions of dungeon defenders because I wanted to play it on my preferred device ( consoles) and like all college students money wasn't easy to come by for me , so paying 15 bucks was a bit steep at the time. so imagine my surprise when I came across steam and the humble bundle ... And later the iOS version which were all $5 or less at different times. Every time I saw it cheaper elsewhere I logged onto xbox live or PSN and found the game still $ 15 . Well eventually I crumbled and ended up buying an iOS version and two PC versions ( one on sale and one as part of the humble bundle) combined for right around 15 bucks and if I look up dungeon defenders today on live surprise surprise it is still $15 / 1200 points.
I know the arcade is slightly different but dungeon defenders has maintained this price ever since it hit the console ( except for a few sales here and there I am sure) and I know other arcade games that work like this too. . I am not picking on xbox live but or Microsoft but the concept of a store or content controlled by the publisher. Why wouldn't ms joust drop the price of the game? Because if you want to play this title on a Microsoft device you have to go through Microsoft.
I think the xbox one will adapt the same approach if a user has to pay to play the games on the system, usedor new and the purpose is to increase the profit of game sales as a whole isn't faster price dropping kind of counter productive? The only way I see this making games cheaper is if users don't take to it which offers a whole host of other issues.
If MS holds the keys to you enjoying a game on their console no matter what, I don't see an incentive for dropping the price for games except to compete with the PS4 and really that says nothing at all for the exclusives and if the ps4 adapts similar policies we are in e en more trouble as consumers
Gamers are cheap and only buy what they are willing to pay for. Also most Apple devices allow you to transfer all your games and apps to other devices anyway. So of course they are not crying about anything.
Yes unlike things bought for the Xbox360 account you can just take everything with you on your new apple device. When I think about my next phone I always have to think if I will stay in the eco system or go to another one. Its a nice move from microsoft to allow the Xbox360 users to buy Playstation4s without any regret of loosing something.
It's the psychology of buying (well licensing, really) a digital item via physical medium. Since you can hold it, you feel like you should be able to resell it.
As soon as we get rid of all physical media, this won't be as much of an issue. (And, it will be much better for the environment too and cheaper because there won't be manufacturing costs.)
It is not always about trading, it is also about borrowing. If you have an item. If you have a hard copy, you should have the rights to allow a pal to play it while you play his game. It is console birthright.
Its not only the friends, its also the family. I think most families get around this things by violating the EULAs and using the same accounts. When the new Kinect prevents that by detecting who owns the account...
... i think thats a nightmare.
Let's put it this way, from the Xbox players I've talked to, they are expecting prices to be cheaper if they can't trade their games, but I think that's being optimistic, I'm sure the prices will stay the same and may even rise for the next gen to take into account all the "Super high definition visuals gameplay audio" that you can only get on them...
"No one's complaining about not being able to trade iOS games." this is very different than saying people don't care about being able to trade apps on iOS and actually seeks to dismiss the notion that iOS users have sentiments about whether or not reselling digital applications should be permissible, and under what conditions such rights should be expected or forfeit.... if you don't know the answer to this you cannot legitimately claim that those being vocal about reselling issues on the XBone are wrong or without merit.
I don't know if there is a study that Linus is basing his quote off of, but I feel like the bigger factors are:
1) PC/Mobile gamers are more used to not being able to transfer games. We've been buying games that are tied specifically to accounts for a very long time. Console gamers aren't used to that yet.
2) There are retailers who look to lose out on a lot of easy money because of this and, as such, are willing to spend a lot of money to keep players riled up about the issue.
Sure, the low price point of mobile games may contribute to why people aren't that upset about it, but the platform has never had physical copies you could trade so it's not something people feel they are having taken away from them now.
I personally would be down for more digital content and no used games if they were $30 instead or even cheaper. It's not like getting $7 back for a game I bought or being able to buy a used one for $4 less was ever making an actual impact for me.
Obviously he missed the part where the issue centers around physical copies of games and not digital.
People seem to be missing the fact that this console generation is championing digital distribution as the primary format. The disks you buy in store are for everyone who doesn't understand what that means and prefers to have something tangible. The disks are also useful for those who have data caps on their internet and can't afford large downloads.
The "used game" controversy is peanuts compared to how the general public would react if they had clue what this was really all about.
I plunk down $60 for a game, maybe I'm going to buy less games if I can't recoup some of my investment reselling it.
This establishes a dreadful risk-aversion feedback loop. Because consumers become tighter with their dollars, games that push the envelope anything less than perfectly will have a steeper time making a profit, so companies won't want to *try* pushing the envelope. More emphasis on splashy graphics to the determent of story and gameplay. Just like the film industry. [sigh]
The only bright side is this opens room for indies to prosper.
"then they could become cheaper too."
I also have to question this idea. Does anyone actually believe that if Sony or Microsoft or whoever else were to actually take a solid bite out of used sales that prices would suddenly decrease? Because last time I checked reduced competition also meant reduced pressure to lower prices, not the other way around.
Are we to rely on them to reduce prices for the end consumer out of the goodness of their hearts?
If that reduced competition results in fewer purchases, then yes, a price drop will happen. Will it result in lower out of the gate prices for games? Probably not. But it will result in quicker price drops after launch.
And one thing that I realized yesterday when I opened my DarkSiders2 box and had to enter 3 codes, which just unlocked something that was already on the disc, is that it is getting more and more inconvenient for the customer.
It used to be that pirated things (games, music, video) where inferior to the originals. But with all that restrictions and in an all download world the pirated copies are offering already a better user experience...
For me its the little things too, when I watch blue rays and can't skip the "piracy warnings" I sometimes get so angry why they force the paying customers to few that, the pirates don't watch it!!!!!!!
And now I see an even darker future for the user experience. And maybe, when Sony decides to joins in, this might lead to Nintendo's victory.
"Will it result in lower out of the gate prices for games? Probably not. But it will result in quicker price drops after launch."
Neither will occur. This is plainly obvious to anyone who has been paying attention to the prices of digitally distributed console games versus their physical counterparts. Here are a couple of examples from today:
Halo 4: Amazon $28, XBox Marketplace $40
Black Ops II: Amazon $38, XBox Marketplace $60
Bioshock Infinite: Amazon $40, XBox Marketplace $60
Batman AC: Amazon $15 (GOTY), XBox Marketplace $20 (Standard)
And on and on. So the publishers are keeping the digital distribution prices high even though there is strong competition from retail, and the retail version also has more value to the consumer (because it can be loaned or resold).
But you're suggesting that once that competition from used games is eliminated, the publishers will be compelled to lower their prices? Less competition = lower prices? No, that will not happen.
The problem is that these companies don't seem to understand the consumer. The reason people buy a video game console is to save money on video games. Traditionally consoles have been higher technology then our computers at a lower price point. But what we are being introduced is basically an over priced low end PC with a bunch of highly restrictive DMR on it. There is no incentive for the consumer to buy the product. The console is going to die, but not because we've outgrown the idea of consoles, but because the industry has forgot what a console is.
Nintendo are not exactly champions of consumer-friendliness.
http://tinyurl.com/kuxmc39
http://tinyurl.com/bchdurf
I know the arcade is slightly different but dungeon defenders has maintained this price ever since it hit the console ( except for a few sales here and there I am sure) and I know other arcade games that work like this too. . I am not picking on xbox live but or Microsoft but the concept of a store or content controlled by the publisher. Why wouldn't ms joust drop the price of the game? Because if you want to play this title on a Microsoft device you have to go through Microsoft.
I think the xbox one will adapt the same approach if a user has to pay to play the games on the system, usedor new and the purpose is to increase the profit of game sales as a whole isn't faster price dropping kind of counter productive? The only way I see this making games cheaper is if users don't take to it which offers a whole host of other issues.
If MS holds the keys to you enjoying a game on their console no matter what, I don't see an incentive for dropping the price for games except to compete with the PS4 and really that says nothing at all for the exclusives and if the ps4 adapts similar policies we are in e en more trouble as consumers
As soon as we get rid of all physical media, this won't be as much of an issue. (And, it will be much better for the environment too and cheaper because there won't be manufacturing costs.)
... i think thats a nightmare.
1) PC/Mobile gamers are more used to not being able to transfer games. We've been buying games that are tied specifically to accounts for a very long time. Console gamers aren't used to that yet.
2) There are retailers who look to lose out on a lot of easy money because of this and, as such, are willing to spend a lot of money to keep players riled up about the issue.
Sure, the low price point of mobile games may contribute to why people aren't that upset about it, but the platform has never had physical copies you could trade so it's not something people feel they are having taken away from them now.