I have a better question: Who cares what Brenda Brathwaite has to say? Rather than deliver an attempt at tongue-in-cheek sarcasm about how cool and unique it *isn't* necessarily to be a woman in games, I'd like to see an op-ed piece on what some of Brathwaite's female students think about the intersection of their gender and their career. Since the last thing we heard from Brathwaite was when she voted herself onto the list of the 20 Most Important Women in Games, I think it's nothing short of hubris run rampant to try to downplay that now with sarcasm and, of all things, foul language hardly becoming to a professor of any subject. Not. Impressed.

those are some old games she's worked on, but none were ever AAA

Haha - "I'd like to see [a piece on what the female students think about their game career]". So wait... let's ask women what they think about being women and making games, unless they say they're tired of being asked and they just wanna make games, in which case let's ignore them and find other younger, more pliable women to ask?

I'm with Brenda... screw it, let's just make games.

Those who cannot do... teach.

There's a discussion on GameCareerGuide.com's forum as well.

http://gamecareerguide.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6927#post6927

Or should it be, "Those who have done it all, teach those that have done little"? There's a certain point when posting anon just to stir up the pot isn't just annoying but asinine. Especially where there's false or slanderous material in them. Remember, slander is still a legal offense and posting anon doesn't mean getting away scot-free.

Other than that, I am with Abe and Brenda, let's make games. Great games.

Liz-C

Liz C - The legal offense of Slander has to be malicious, false, and defamatory. When using modifiers such as, "I think," and "I'd like to see" then it's just good ole opinion, and - yes - one can actually get away scot-free after stating an opinion! You may not agree with my viewpoint or how I've expressed it, you may not like anonymous posts, but the practice is hardly illegal. Rather than rail against an anonymous poster with whom you disagree, perhaps you might email to Gamasutra about their policy to allow anonymous commentary such as what I've posted. Until they revoke the privlege, however, I'll gladly accept the (appropriate) brand of "coward" when I choose to express negative opinions. Even negative opinions engender discussion and provoke thought!

Anonymous,

First I'll make the disclaimer that Brenda is one of my friends. So take my opinions with that in mind.

The definition of AAA has surely changed over the years, but still I've got to think the Wizardry series is mostly considered to be AAA. It was pretty popular...right?

Also, realize that the people she called for the article are also her close friends who she knows well. If she seems too friendly with the people, or the humor comes across wrong, maybe its just that it reads differently to someone who doesn't know these people. I guess in those terms maybe you've got a gripe (that the article didn't touch a wider audience).

"Those who cannot do... teach."

By the way, can we try to keep this website/forum a bit more professional? Thanks.

So she's being tongue-in-cheek about drawing attention to gender in a career... while drawing attention to gender? Maybe I'm wrong on that, but that's how it looks to me. Either way, I think it's an irrelevant issue. Women are just as capable as men in game development and thus should be seen as equals; nothing more, nothing less.

And what's this about slander? This is the internet, shouldn't you expect someone to say something you don't agree with? As long as Gamasutra allows me to, I too will continue to post anonymous because I don't want to potentially say something that could hurt my career.

Aren't you the same clown who anonymously slammed Brenda a few months ago because she gave you a grade you didn't like? Or are you a different clown? It's so hard to tell one gutless weasel from another on the Internet.

Here's a tip -- if you think saying something might hurt your career, doesn't that suggest that there might be something wrong with what you propose to say?

Personally, I think hiring managers should adopt a policy of asking candidates if they post anonymously, and refusing to hire those who say yes. That would kinda hurt your career too -- unless you're willing to lie to get a job, of course.

I couldn't care less about "Women In Games." I care more about "Game Designers In Games."

I think it was pretty cool way back when. You know, back in the days when it was risque for women to (here's a shocker) succeed independently. Back when it was considered brave for women to wear short skirts, expose their ankles, have personal opinions, and vote.

But the whole "Women In ______" phenomenon doesn't really grab me anymore. Because it's not a phenomenon. What's so special about being a woman in something, when women can exist just about anywhere in society anyway? Doesn't the whole notion of "Women In Gaming" suggest that the video game industry is a place that doesn't have a place for women?

Looking at the sales figures for The Sims, I'd be inclined to disagree. Seeing that rhythm and music games have a demographic made about equal between male and female consumers shows that there are franchises out there that don't discern what gender is intended to purchase their product. "Women in Gaming?" What about it? I think they belong just as much as their male counter-parts.

Excellent article.

I think you've got the wrong anonymous poster, Ernest. To the best of my knowledge I didn't say a thing against Ms. Brathwaite. The guy at the top is just some insecure misogynist or something. I, on the other hand, am merely suggesting that people shouldn't criticize those who choose to post anonymously on the assumption that they are "cowards". Merely many, myself included, just don't want to end up in an argument with someone they might work with some day, or say something that an employer might dislike.

Maybe you aren't aware, but for a lot of people with upstart careers, there's a popular trend amongst employers to "Google" the names of those youths to see what kinds of incriminating things pop up. MySpace pages with photos of excessive drinking, and opinionated posts on forums are all pretty popular insta-kills for their applications.

So please, stop pretending like you're a relevant force in this industry and shut the hell up.

Sincerely,

An Anonymous Poster

As a game designer, I agree with Brenda-- who cares about women in games? I love video games, and I love design-- and it's awesome to talk about games with other people who love games. But we are reminded that yes, women are scarce in this male dominated industry.

Whenever I say I'm a designer, people are like wow, really? The only thing that really bothers me is when I was in school, another female said that we'd get jobs in the industry for sure because we're women (and I indeed wanted to slap her in the face for thinking this...)

I, however, do not feel this way at all-- I'm fortunate to work with extremely talented people who value my opinion and the work that I do. And I also worked my ass off to get this job :)

So women in games-- who cares indeed! Let's all just concentrate on making great games!

Pam.

It is a funny article, and I get the joke, but there is still such an enormous gender gap in both players and developers that there's a lot of unanswered questions left. Certainly the question "what's it like being a WOMAN in games?" is not useful or ever relevant to any discussion, but there's a few really important questions regarding gender in games that ARE important, that male developers in the west need answers to so they can take responsibility for creating such a gender biased industry and turn it around the way the Japanese have. For example -

What can we all do to make games more appealing to women?
What is it about games specifically that brought the women that are in the game industry....into it?
What are western developers doing wrong that makes their games so repellent to women, and what are they doing right?...Anything?

Western developers are either clueless or spiteful towards the female audience in general, we all need to know what can be done to change that to expand the industry and expand the flavor of the industry. Without female perspectives helping us to understand our key differences, their cynicism will only pay off with more Gears of War and Grand Theft Autos, self-indulgent m ale-based murder fantasy games that capitalize on men's competitive killing/warlike drives. Great games, but developers in Japan are making them look more stale and backwards every year, every Final Fantasy, and every new puzzle game they make.

For purpose of mental exercise, I asked myself the flip question the article mentioned. To my surprise, it quickly turned into a silent rant. Admittedly, I have a natural tendency for rants. Then again, we were having a discussion on symbolic meaning of comets just the other day, and one coworker referred to moomins. The answer was a flurry of laughter. As it turned out, game designers tend to be of the opinion that moomins are, as they put it, gay. One participant said: "what's next, Anne of Green Gables?". In other words, real men don't read this kind of stuff. The list of all things gay is quite long, and includes, among other things, folk music, small pets, moral dilemmas of any kind, and female NPCs with more IQ than breast circumference. These topics are practically taboos, because it's inappropriate for a man to bring them up, and there are no women on our team.

Any teacher who advises their students against this mode of thinking has my support.

An Anonymous Poster: That was a really funny comment. I hope to see that level of humor in a game some day.

I think it is really entertaining to watch an entertainment-based industry wax intellectual about itself. The negative comments are the best especially when someone tries set them straight instead of ignoring them like normal. Someone should make a game about this. :)

Hi there:
Women in Games: Who Cares?

REALLY CARES!, not if you are a simple worker but if you are responsible by YOUR team, such a chief, and employer and such.

a) Pregnancy is a REAL MATTER, exist such women that schedule it but are scarce and any question, claim or ask related with this matter is illegal, so the employer is gambling to contract a responsible worker, a gamble that you can't even have previous information or tips, in a interview you can't ask if the future employee is pregnant or want to be in a near future.

b) Interpersonal Relationship , while (IMHO) is fairly easy to work with women, other men are not seasoned with it, some men think that every women are for laid on, other don't want to treat directly with women and of course sexual harassment problems (justified and unjustified one), a chief is not a father and don't like to spend time on this matter. Several business will take the politics of "only-men", and other take the rule of "only-women". of course it is not a publicity announce (because is also illegal) but its a fact. Even in a group formed only by men is a complex task.

c ) Family matter, I don't want to explain to much about this matter but yet it's a factor to consider.

d) To keep a nursery/daycare/specific health insurance and any other local law blocking and difficulty to contract women. In the "Americas" this law are some that liberal, in Europe are not just hard but nasty.

So, IT industry (including games) is not a men only club because some people think women are not capable but because other factors. So the (few) women in games are not (only) because their abilities but also because a employer did a good (or bad) bet. In my workplace they did a bad bet several times, now they are following the rule of no-women and while it's a sad and yet discriminative matter is also related with a business where the goal of any business is to produce money with the least effort possible.

damn it, i can't edit comments.

So a woman that has worked for several years in games is A WOMAN IS GAMES (and most likely a valuable assert of the business), but man is just another man (of thousand) in games.

A question of hubris and laurels...

If you look at the trends of other media industries, you will see that in each one women became more and more predominant with time. Other media also has variants that are targeted successfully towards women. I am confident that these trends will repeat in game dev and gaming, which I feel is great on every level.

We should always focus on the bottom lines, which are making great games and making some dollars. At the same time, ignoring the different experiences of various demographics in an industry which, like most, wants to appeal to the broadest target market possible, is a bit short-sighted. Gender differences go beyond organ variations, so we shouldn't oversimplify the issue, either.

Brathwaite has chosen to work in a field which, in my opinion, holds a lot of advantages for women. Being a woman in the game industry is kind of like being a male cheerleader. Scratch that, more like being one of only a couple men on the island of amazon women. You can't deny the potential ego boost of being a queen bee. Brathwaite once said she was mistaken for being a booth "babe". It couldn't have been the Playboy: The Mansion booth, though, because... uh, I don't think anybody went to that one.

My question is, is she trying to command the entire industry to stop questioning her because we are a nuisance? I wonder if the topic of women in games will be ignored during her next interview.

My point is, she has enjoyed all the benefits of being a woman in a male dominated industry. She will need to continue to deal with the fact that she will be questioned by the naturally and understandably interested, curious, and invested. Poor Brenda...

"My point is, she has enjoyed all the benefits of being a woman in a male dominated industry"

...and all the downsides, including but surely not limited to, assumptions from idiots now and then that being a woman gives her "special benefits" and an "ego boost" or that being mistaken for a booth babe is a good thing (Uh, look, do you think any reputible game designer wants people to assume she's there as a floozie instead of, say, someone intelligent and capable and part of the design team, an actual contributer, not someone who's only selling the game on her perks -- all two of them?).

If you want to know what kind of downsides, not benefits, women receive, look to the idiot above me. When attitudes like that vanish -- along with, as Brathwaite pointed out, attitudes that there is a difference between men and women in games because the woman is the "mysterious other" -- that'll be a grand day indeed.

- a female game designer.

A question of hubris and laurels... Pt. 2

Women and men are different. And thank god for that. I am a huge supporter of diversity and acceptance. Acceptance means valuing people for there similarities and differences, not ignoring the fact I see as a plus, no, a necessity, that people are all different.

I realize that being different than those around you, in all of the ways that people are different, can make some people feel out of place. I have been there, and I think we all have.

What I am saying, though I thought it was clear, is that if we are all adults, then we can deal with, appreciate, and even take advantage of the things that separate us. Women in game design have made their choice to be in a male dominated industry, knowing full well what the potential issues, and what the benefits, of which there are many, might be.

I simply give women, as adults, enough credit to handle the results of their choices. I disagree with Branda's tactic of using your industry standing to intimidate people into ignoring an important issue, especially just because talking about it is a nuisance to her. She doesn't have to talk about it, but with so many eyes on her, she could set a dangerous standard of closing open discussion on the topic.

Being mistreated for any reason is wrong, no question about it. If I saw it in my workplace, or among my friends, for any reason, it would not be tolerated. To improve any problems that arise, what we need is to continue discussing the issue openly so people can be more aware. You can't reasonably argue with such straightforward logic.

Brenda's attitude, however, seems to stem from a simple personal annoyance at people asking a natural, valid, and important question. This attitude, and the name calling of the one who was kind enough to respond to my previous post do not help your case.

Once again, I feel that we are all potentially equal in most endeavors, but each of us is certainly unique. I think that our differences are what make us valuable as individuals. They should be looked upon with reverence.

There is nothing idiotic about that.

By "there", I mean "their"... Rrr, and I found another error... Why can't I edit posts on here?

"Merely many, myself included, just don't want to end up in an argument with someone they might work with some day, or say something that an employer might dislike."

Classic. He wants the freedom to say whatever he likes without having to exercise any self-control, or having the guts to take the consequences of his actions. A perfect example of why civility and integrity are dying virtues.

Well said, Brenda! I concur with your thoughts, though I would like to throw in a few additional thoughts of my own.

Seth Spaulding said to you, "A guy meets a girl at a bar who says she's into games? It's like the Holy Grail. You're drinking for free tonight, honey!"

I think that level of amazement spurs, in part, the questions women get about why they're in the industry and what they get out of it. There are still so many women who *don't* have any interest in the gaming industry, or even in playing games, that it's still something of a miracle for a guy who's been working in a mostly-male environment to meet the first female hire his company makes. (Can you tell I've been there?) Having your gender pointed out to you might get tiring, but much of the time, the questions are curious and well-intentioned.

I don't mind answering questions about how my gender influences my decisions or career path, whether they're from guys or girls. Even if the answer is just, "My gender doesn't have anything to do with it," I figure that's a useful response for someone who is trying to understand me -- or the gazillion women they mistakenly think I represent. ;-)

Though the truth is, in MY case, my gender has a lot to do with it. If I'd come out a boy, I probably *wouldn't* be in the gaming industry right now. (There's a statement that's bound to make a few eyes cross.)

First off, I don't like the fact that I have to logon to make this post. so a little about me.

-female
-minority
-senior student in a game art program
-hair & booth model on the side--so I guess I'm attractive ( which some people think this is a detriment to a game career)

I always thought of myself as a female who got along with guys more than girls. I use to wrestle my brother and won...until...well then he got bigger than me. But, as I got older, I noticed the treatment to be a little different. I tried to join a D&D group . We all went to a concert, and one of them slapped my ass just out of the blue and I saw them chuckling at each other when I turned around. Needless to say, I stopped going. Well, ok not a big deal. At this point, I just don't care if I get sexually harassed or assaulted...just don't do it on a weekly basis. I don't ask for much. And I will even admit, I will just laugh along with the rest of the guys when they make an off color comment, because the ramifications of me saying anything is far worse imo than just being agreeable. I know, I know...to all the feminists who have fought for this cause. I apologize. I have not been a good role model. I just wanted it to be easy, and quite frankly not be labeled as "that girl", "Anita Hill" or even worse. Well, I just ignored most of the comments from guys until the fateful day came when I decided to open my mouth and say something. This particular teacher would make sexist comments on a weekly basis, sometimes targeting me sometimes targeting women in general....I had him for 1.5 years. the last 2 months of those years, I decided to tell him that some of the comments he made, although jokingly , shouldn't be said. I just asked him to tone it down. I'm really not going to repeat some of the specifics of what he said. But I did mention to him 1 particular instance where I noted the time, day and all the details surrounding the incident. I thought ok maybe he might just deny it and apologize if he said those things, which even that I would have been ok with. BUT, he called me crazy and I'm making stuff up etc etc...yeah, didn't go too well ladies. I tried. so I brushed it off like I always do. But then I heard other girls having similar problems with him. So ok, then it was on. We decided to go to the academic director with our statements. He tried the best he can to resolve this issue. He really did. I think he finally got fed up with the admin here that he ended up quiting. He lasted a year. I don't blame him. I'm just glad he was one of the few people actually did something about this man. So latest news, he's still working here at my school. I see him in elevators, halls, classes....yeah not that comfortable. I've had other students harassing me, telling people I'm crazy for saying this. One day, I was just quietly modeling with ear phones on doing homework, and this guy just pushes the back of my chair and says, "I can't get there cause this crazy girl is in my way." He didn't even know me. I never met him in my whole time here. I mean this is just one of many incidences. yes, I'm discouraged. Yes, this is a real issue at least for me. Yes, it shouldn't be this way. BUT it is at least in my world, and that's all I can speak for. Despite this, I tried to convince myself that maybe it's not like this in the pro world, but then running into Jade Raymond's comic when I googled women in games....and then reading all the interviews by the multiplayer blog on mtv, I'm a little discouraged. It's my senior year. I'm afraid I made a wrong decision to be in this industry. Yeah, I can fight, make a change, blaze a trail, but I'm spent. I'm tired of fighting. I just want to be left alone now. And now with 6 months left in my major, I'm looking to figure out a way NOT to get into the industry with my game art major. I think I wanted to give my personal account of my experience, mainly because I can't speak for eveyone. I'm just an expert of me. I'm tired of being quiet. Some of you posted up there that we as women know fully well what industry we're getting into. I really didn't think it was this bad. I just gave the benefit of the doubt for a long time. I think that asking the question, how is it like being a women in the _______ industry, is a question that needs to be asked. It is an issue, because again, I just didn't know it was this bad. If someone would have told me how bad it was, then maybe I would have made a more informed decision about my career choice. Right now, I feel like I've been stabbed in the back. I had no clue it was this bad. Other industries do have inequality issues, but I don't know of any other industry that has examples of such blatant immaturity in this department. so I'm going to take this time to warn other women who are thinking about entering into this industry. This is a real issue, at least for me. You should consider this issue as a concern, but despite all of this, you still want to do games, go for it. I'm still trying to answer this question. Do I still want to be in this industry despite all of these issues? I don't know. Unfortuantely, I didn't explore this question in time.