"you'd be in another business,"



or be at another studio. believe it or not, some studios dont screw you repeatedly until the game ships.

A valid point. Personally I don't have a problem with that kind of pressure or work ethic, used to it. It can be a tough gig. Over half a lifetime of programming and seldom come across a job with regular hours.

it just seems like people develop a learned helplessness and stop looking for better places to work because all anyone hears about are the Rockstars of the gaming industry and think its the same way everywhere. dont get me wrong, its a tough, competitive business, and you have to work hard because there are thousands who want your job, but it is possible to maintain a healthy balance in this industry.



i think if more people looked at quality of life instead of just a paycheck, we'd all be better off.

Exactly my thoughts. And this statement: "If you wanted to do a nine-to-five job, you'd be in another business," seems borderline discrimination to me. Honestly McNamara should watch what he says since he's opening himself right up for law suits imho.

Only in our industry is such a work environment tolerated to the point that if you are to demand a healthy working environment, you can expect a pink slip. How did we become the exception to all labor laws?

"working toward a union or guild"



Hey, if you want to talk about this, please contact me (eiyukabe_at_gmail).

It's on the way :)

+1

I had just purchased LA Noire about a week before this story. I already felt that a lot of the flaws of this game were underreported (i.e. the animations generally are horrible, depite the revolutionary technology for the faces of the actors). Now, after reading this I am even less inclined to fire up this game. It all makes sense that there are a lot of loose end kind of problems, since it is obviously more about ego than creating a truly excellent product.

Your crazy thought leads to another disturbing trend in the industry, at some companies the "completion bonus" is a swift layoff from the company.

So true. Imagine for all the physical/relationship hell you endure to put a quality game out and your reward is to be fired. Flip side, if you develop a crap game (and were given the time/resources to make it great) you should expect a firing.

7 Years is a LOT of time. Only game that's taken more than that is, well, Duke Nukem Foreever.

I don't understand why crunching was needed at all. I mean, 7 years!!!

The worst thing about it is crunch at this magnitude doesn't work. There's a century of research that proves people do less work when working more than 40-hour weeks on a regular basis. A week or two here or there for a major push or milestone is one thing, but ongoing like this is just incompetent management. And the game will never break even, never make a profit. If they had just worked normal hours (and used just competent project management) could have had the same game done in three years.

ding, ding, ding, ding!



People do less work when crunching, they have worse relationships with their co-workers and family, and their health deteriorates.



Why would we do this to people?!

I think Higor is actually saying that it is more difficult to send people into space compared to making a AAA game yet we don't hear much about poor working conditions in those industries.

Yeah, that's how I interpreted it too. Implying that crunch is not unavoidable, that claiming it is unavoidable is just an excuse used by upper management (who, even when they work as many hours, stand to get filthy rich off of the product if it's a hit and have much more motivation to work themselves - and naturally those they don't care about - to death) to justify greedy scheduling.

You hit the nail on the head Jeffrey. This is not about whether a project deserves the amount of work it's about exploiting workers to make yourself rich. I don't see every worker receiving an equal share of the profits so his argument that "People don't work any longer hours than I do. I don't turn up at 9am and go home at 5pm, and go to the beach," is complete rubbish.

"I don't see every worker receiving an equal share of the profits"



Especially not the ones that got laid off :)

Why I agreed with Higor is that there seems to be a managament problem in the mainstream game industry which could be avoided by learning from much more demanding job fields. But the main problem in the case here seems to be a lack of concept and planning in combination with ego bitching.



I hear many stories and the treatment of workers on many places in this industry is an insult. Caused by bad producers/managers who throw random ideas and tasks through space and time and burn the workforce due to their unprofessionalism.



And in my experience you cannot produce great products if you screw with those who develop it. 7 years...

Not to mention the fact that even if it is technically true that it's "his game", ignoring the structures that are in place to ensure proper communication and organisation is a recipe for disaster. Not only is McNamara's attitude bad for morale, it's bad for the game too. Good software development requires that the work be clearly organised and that there be clear lines of communication to ensure that everyone is on the same page, working in the same direction, understanding how things are supposed to fit together. Maybe if he communicated the requested changes properly and let them filter down through all of the necessary channels, they would have had less difficulties and could have shipped the game a lot sooner.

Yeah, I've experienced working under managers like him. It's not fun. I agree, making a AAA game like that takes a lot of hard work, dedication and focus. He wouldn't have been able to achieve this type of game without the hard working individuals that were/was on his team. The dictator style management doesn't work unless you're content with high turnover rates with talent. I'm sure if it wasn't for the love of the game, his developers probably wouldn't have stayed that long.



He definitely comes across as a person who values money over the value of building a solid team and taking care of his team members. Just because he chooses to work the kind of hours he works doesn't mean it should be enforced on others. If he really cared for the project, he'll realize that having fresh, happy and content developers can only gain him a better game in the end.



Now, I haven't bought the game nor do I intend to. If what is said about the quality of the game is true, it might have been reviewed better if he did take the time to treat his team as people rather than expendible robots.

That really is incredible. Sure, someone has to have final say on things, but this guy must have an ego the size of Jupiter to think he has any right to say a game worked on by hundreds of people is his.



A happy worker is a productive worker, and will likely put out just as much work as the unhappy guy you're making work twice as long.

He might think it was the best game ever too. Can't imagine the amount of great directions the game could have turned if this guy wasn't so narrow-minded and listened to the team.

Totally agree Jeffrey, I will never work for this McNamara jerk (yes I realize that's no where NEAR strong enough a word for this guy).

Totally agree with you. I've been wanting to buy LA Noire since it was released, but now i can't possibly enjoy it, not after reading the absurdities of McNamara's speech. I'll actively avoid whatever he works on, hoping that this will eventually get him out of the industry, and someone that know at least something about management and good work environment (or being a decent human being, really) can get funding from the publishers instead of him.

Another sad truth in our industry is Upper management in many cases has become a boy's club where there is no managing down. If you're a line guy/gal and don't like how you are managed you won't last long if you complain. The dark side of 'hired at will'.

There are plenty of other industries that pull in more money than the game industry and they don't necessarily require you to work ridiculous hours non-stop. Then again, some of those industries have unions. :)

"sheer amount of money" doesn't really make sense. If anything, a more profitable industry would have less need to drive the tension as much as they do.



There's another side to this debate, which is that part of the reason they do this is that they can get away with it because people WANT to make games. It's abuse of a tipped-to-one-side supply-demand situation.



Anyhow, I agree it's a pretty crappy position the guy takes in the interview. Hopefully he'll find out this pursuit runs out of gas (and fresh bodies).

Some of these game publishers say, we need to sell x amount of copies as a mandate. Bioware saying that they want to sell 10 million copies on every game only proves that.



If they don't get those targets, guess what happens? It's pressure put on the people who make these games.

And you don't have to pay astonishing health care taxes. :D

" Unfortunately, I don't foresee the 'make or break' gamble of big budget game production ever really getting much better unless we want nothing but low-risk, derivative games that do nothing to further the medium."



But we have both those problems right now =(

Strictly speaking from an outsider's perspective as I have no game development experience yet, I actually don't have a problem so much with working crunch as I do with poor managers and having to re-do weeks of work (done in crunch mode) because of poor management decisions. In an ideal work environment, crunch shouldn't happen. If it does, it needs to be recognized that the team is working above and beyond the normal expectations.

"It's a privilege to earn your living making make-believe things, telling stories and getting to immerse yourself in things like art, music and the creative process."



Spoken like someone who hasn't spent ten minutes working in a real development environment.

you want a medal?



i've been lucky that i've worked for far more creative studios (not to mention real life blue collar jobs) without exsessive crunch (or really any crunch that i dont do myself), so i don't need this crap. you want to be exploited, go ahead.

Good God... if you're trolling, congratulations; I'm falling for it, so enjoy.



I had to look to make sure, but yes, you're the same asshole that showed similar sentiments here: http://gamasutra.com/blogs/KeithFuller/20110114/6792/60_Straight_Days_of_ Crunch_
Really_Please_Explain.php



"And I say this not from a pedestal, but as someone who has poured 1000's of hours into my craft (both music and now games) while raising my now teen-aged son; so I know all about long days and unrequited work and talent unknown. I'm still lucky, because UDK just updated today and I can still go chase a creative dream."



Okay Awesome Game Developer, how many of those "1000s of hours" have you put into working for a company in the game industry? Not writing music, not thinking about games, not even just working on games at home for fun or profit, I mean working... for a company... in the game industry. Wait, UDK? You wouldn't happen to be a... hobbyist, would you? This leads me to believe - and please, correct me if I'm wrong - that you have not worked a day in the industry and are comparing the ease with which you work late nights on your pet projects at home to the difficulty that many in the industry suffer working late nights on some heartless corporate insult of a game, or heck even on a good game with a jerk of a manager. Pet projects are the easiest thing in the world to do, and if you are truly creative and exploratory it is actually a good way to wind down. Hell I work on my pet projects in what little time I can scrape together _even during crunch time_!!



What it comes down to is not just passion, it's also control of your life. If you are working on a project you truly enjoy and believe in, at home or at work, then you will be more likely to work late out of natural inclination. I'm hopeful you can imagine it being much more difficult to fall in love with a game of the crap-caliber quality that the industry has dissolved into producing, especially with the motivational temperature nose-diving every day as you watch your coworkers get laid off through no fault of their own (or get laid off yourself).



"Keep it up Rockstar and Brendan. I'm your huckleberry..."



Hey, why don't you go apply for a job at Team Bondi? They're sure to be hiring soon for their next masterpiece, and I'm sure they'll be more than happy to hire such a willing tool as yourself.

I'm sorry to awaken your hostility. But if it isn't apparent to you, nobody forces anyone to work anywhere in this industry.



If you find the big-bad corporate behemoth to be so terrible, wait for it: DON'T WORK FOR IT. I know, revolutionary concept. But if more talent were actually willing to stick to their beliefs (or form any to start with perhaps) and try to do something they believe in or that actually mattered to them, rather than be 'forced' into labor for a large developer, perhaps we'd have a games industry that was flourishing, much like other mediums have enjoyed in their heyday.



Know any people in the film industry? Have any idea what it's like to work on some of those sets and productions? Gone on tour for a year and a half on a stadium tour and worked with that crew?



A guy who's in charge of a $100 million game production pushed people hard and expected a lot.



Ya...no shit.

Complete horseshit Jason. Jackassy lazy project management, belligerent egomania and the resultant waste and bad decision making are why this game took seven years and will never turn a profit.



Creativity has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

"If you find the big-bad corporate behemoth to be so terrible, wait for it: DON'T WORK FOR IT."



yeah sure let me just zip on down to the job store and pick up a new job. maybe two. no problem in this economy. i'm sure the family wouldnt mind moving again. nevermind trying to fix things.



there is nothing remotely creative or fulfilling about working in a place like that. its hardly a privledge to make other people billions while counting our blessings that our corporate overlords deign to allow us to be exploited. give me a break.

Yes, it is a priviledge to develop games and I enjoy the challenges that it brings because there are many rewards for a job well done. However, if you've been in the industry long enough and you've put your time in only to be treated like horse dung, I'd like to see how long you can endure that. Having that drive to make compelling games doesn't mean we should sacrifice our lives for it...especially when others are involved like your family. If you can't agree to that, then you have your priorities backwards. Work is important but family is even more important.



When you come home after a long hard day of pouring your heart out on a game, only to be stepped on by the people you're working hard for, do you not think that takes a toll on you? Not to mention bringing that home and affecting those around you? Is that "OK" by your standards?



I worked in the AAA games industry for well over 10 years and I can honestly say I don't mind working on the smaller, casual titles. For one, I'm making a little more than what I was making at a AAA studio, I have more creative control and am involved in many more systems so I can grow in my craft, work ends before the sun sets, I have my weekends, very low stress, have time for my family, and still have time on the side to dedicate working on side projects. Honestly, I had none of these before and aside from being able to put something on my resume, I basically hated my job because of all the things it took away from me. Oh, and the big difference now...I have MORE DRIVE AND LOVE for creating games than I ever had before.



Now, I won't speak for everyone when I say this as I'm only speaking from my experience, working at a AAA studio/project isn't as glamorous as you think it would be. Now, I won't deny that having that experience on my resume doesn't benefit me, but I certainly am more careful of where I choose to work. LIFE > GAMES. If you're happy with life, you're more likely to enjoy making games. And if you're miserable in life, that will probably carry over to your attitude and production with the games you make.

"Wait, UDK? You wouldn't happen to be a... hobbyist, would you?"



You still have not answered.

Despite a significant amount of research and hard work from very dedicated folks in the IGDA, their efforts have lacked the teeth to actually make the change. Every fiscal year the big companies are swamped with new, fresh, talented people applying for work. Every year they need to ship the games in order to get money back on their millions invested. Deadlines and stock prices have more sway in our industry than retaining talent.



Keep in mind the EA widow story will be 7 years ago this fall. If you go back and compare some of the issues brought up then with stories in the press this year, it almost seems like they had it easier in 2004.



Though I appreciate all that IGDA has done so far, it just simply isn't enough.

Good news, looks like they are: http://www.develop-online.net/news/38125/Industry-outrage-at-brutal-Team- Bondi-c
runch



Trying at least. I agree with Dex, the IGDA has good intentions and probably makes some small difference, but we need something more.



edit: there seems to be a space before the word "Bondi" in that link that I can't see to remove when editing. Oh well, just google the article title or remove the space yourself if anyone wants to see :)

Here's a quote from Brian Robbins, chair of the IGDA Board of Directors. A step in the right direction.



“[But] certainly reports of 12-hour a day, lengthy crunch time, if true, are absolutely unacceptable and harmful to the individuals involved, the final product, and the industry as a whole,” Robbins told Develop.