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Lucasarts' Hocking: Less 'Fart Jokes,' More Female Developers
Lucasarts' Hocking: Less 'Fart Jokes,' More Female Developers
July 6, 2011 | By Frank Cifaldi

July 6, 2011 | By Frank Cifaldi
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Video game development is akin to viking expansion: it's crewed mostly by men, is interested only in conquest, and is full of pent-up aggression and fart jokes.

That's according to Lucasarts creative director Clint Hocking, who said in a recent essay that hiring more female game developers will not only help sales, it will also sustain games as a viable medium.

"I believe that developing a better-balanced culture is the most important near-term step we can take towards nurturing a stable and truly massmarket audience," he wrote. "This is necessary to see us make the transition from an exploitative, expansionist industry to a sustainable one."

While the need for more female developers has certainly been expressed before, more often than not the argument has been made for the sake reaching a larger, untapped female market. According to Hocking, the need is much more important than that: we need to diversify not to appeal to female gamers, but to appeal to our universal culture at large.

"Its this overall culture thats the giant untapped market we need to serve: a rich and diverse mass market thats comprised of men and women, appreciating and consuming art and entertainment together," said Hocking.

Hocking suggests that the first step toward this goal is to guarantee equal opportunity and pay for women: not on a legal level, but in a way that is audited internally by studios. The next step, he said, is promoting female recruitment.

"The problem isnt that were discriminating against female applicants in favor of hiring men; the problem is the lack of female applicants," he wrote. "This means that we need to better position the industry as a desirable workplace, one in which female artists, designers, programmers and project managers would want to be employed."

Hocking's full essay is available here.


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Comments


Alan Rimkeit
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What games have fart jokes? Please point these out because I must have missed them.



Well, I guess Obe's Odyssey, but that games is older than the hills.

Chris Valdez
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I'd say that Boogerman has fart jokes--but yes, that's pretty old (though it did get a rerelease on Virtual Console a few years back).



In Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Wario has a fart attack.



All in all, I think they're pretty rare.

Alan Rimkeit
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I think so as well. There are more mindlessly violent games like COD than there are games with fart jokes.



I would also like to point out that the essay assumes that the majority of males are fart joke loving asshats.



This - "Young men tend to behave in a fairly predictable fashion. Its easy to imagine what will happen if you take a group of 30 or 40 men in their teens and twenties, give them axes and beer, and make them row a longship out to sea for a few weeks in order to make a living. There will be a lot of pent-up aggression." - is pretty insulting in and of itself.



It also assumes that some women do not like fart jokes. I can tell you that quite a few I have known do like crude humor as much or more than any males I have known.

Mike Siciliano
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Conker's Bad Fur Day is loaded with fart jokes.



It was a wonderful game.

Kris Graft
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He's not _necessarily_ talking about video games with fart jokes in them. He's making an analogy for the culture of a male-dominated video game industry.



Just look at this thread. Bunch o' dudes talking about farts.

Alan Rimkeit
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I also want to say that I do not want all games to "appeal to our universal culture at large" I enjoy games like God of War. It would not be the same game if it did "appeal to our universal culture at large".



More women should be in the industry. Making more games that appeal to women would be a good thing. What those are I would not be able to say. I guess one would have to ask each and every female gamer individually. I would imagine lots of female gamers like God of War and other similar games too. This is all a very complicated subject.... O.o

Zack Hiwiller
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Define 'lots'. God of War is the epitome of 'by men, for men'.

Alan Rimkeit
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Really? No women liked God of War? I know quite a few that did. But I would like to see the percentage of men and women that play games like GOW, if we could get that. That would be interesting.

Michael Kamper
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Except it was written by a woman - Marianne Krawczyk



http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3935/the_gamasutra_20_top_g
ame_writers.php?page=20

Alan Rimkeit
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@Michael Kamper - That is pretty cool. My point is made I guess.

Tricia Stokes
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hence the need for more women GOW is fun yah!

Larissa McCutcheon
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That's more Duke Nukem Forever. I do know women who like GoW.

Maurcio Gomes
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I had a couple of friends that loved GoW



When I asked why, their reply: "What, what women would not love see a hot guy hacking stuff around? He is badass, I would marry him if he existed!"



And I, that was not expecting it, replied with:



"Whoa!"

Megan Fox
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Hey now, some of us female developers like fart jokes too. There's nothing wrong with an occasional toot between friends.



... though I do agree with the point overall. The problem isn't really specific to games, it's a general issue of our education system and culture not doing a terribly good job at directing women towards tech jobs - but games are absolutely one of the better ways of combating that. A game studio puts a far more appealing face to "what you do as a programmer" than your average Fortune 500 business software cubical farm.

Joe McGinn
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The work is more appealing but is the environment?



IME women are more intelligent about appreciating a balanced life at a younger age than most men (who don't usually figure it out until *after* they get a family). Cause I guarantee you your QoL will be better at that Fortune 500 company than at a your average crunch-worth game developer.



Would be interesting to test this theory actually ... is there any data comparing the % of female computer programmers in game programming teams compared to non-entertainment work?



It would be helpful to know how much of this is education and culture related in society, and how much is specific to our industry. (And there's probably a genetic component too: I suspect women are less likely to choose such a solitary career as programming.)

JB Vorderkunz
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"Only girls are capable of honest communication and sensitivity" - is sexist in itself. It's a company culture issue, not a gender equity issue, IMO. Also, +s for identifying that quote (its context is a funny case for my point)

Jonathan Murphy
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I have a game script where a female is the main character(it's not metroid). Hopes of making it into a game diminish each year. We need big companies to take less gambles on sequels. I think this needed growth will come from the indie community.

Daniel Gooding
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"female gamers" Is such a broad statement.



I know plenty of gamer girls that hate girly games.

As if hiring a woman will magically make your game appeal to all women.



It's like hiring a homosexual, and assume that the game will more likely appeal to all Homosexuals.





I still think diversity is awesome, and if the people deserve the job then its great that they are hired on, but I think it takes more than just hiring on diverse people to fully understand what specific groups in different walks of life will enjoy.



Yes it might make the office development run more stable, but to make claims that it will increase the sales to an entire gender cannot be accurately determined.





What companies could be doing to make more diverse games is hiring individuals that enjoy actually playing other types of games and have hobbies outside of games, versus adding things like. "A plus if you are a [insert game type] fan" To their hiring process.

Buck Hammerstein
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well said.



female gamers i know want to kick back after a day at work and shoot noobs in the head like anyone else.



they never seem to wonder when they will make a spice girl dress up simulator or barbie hair salon game.

Kate Craig
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I'm not sure that creating girly games is the end result of hiring more ladies, so much as adding elements that female gamers can appreciate and roll with. Games like Assassin's Creed, Uncharted, Dragon Age, these are games with a pretty broad fan base of women from what I've experienced, and there wasn't even a purple dye option for Ezio's robes.

Daniel Gooding
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@ Kate I can understand where you are coming from, and it makes sense. Although i'm not sure if adding purple dye for robes would really increase the chances of a female buying the game. There is no doubt it would make the game more relate-able to people people who have bought the game, and enjoy the color. Perhaps increasing the chance of a repeat buyer for the sequel.



Note: I also happened to know more men that enjoy the color purple, but that's probably not common.

Francesa Castellanos
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I think some of you peoples are missing the point. He is not talking about the game itself, but the atmosphere in which the game is developed.



I would also say that most women developers are not like normal females and really don't like being singled out in these sort of venues. Really we are just one of the guys. However, I think there is more seriousness about the pent up aggression. Sometimes working with a bunch of men is worse than a bunch of women. You need a balance to mellow it out.

Alan Rimkeit
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From what I got from the essay he was trying to make a point of the development studio culture and how that effects the development of the games being made. That hiring women would some how cure the issue of crude dev culture because men are in general crude and rude with too much pent up aggression.



Is this really a big problem at dev studios? Do many studios have an openly crude culture?

Francesa Castellanos
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I would say openly immature and with that, at sometimes, late at night it can get crude.

I would say take a look at, perhaps, Dreamworks movie humor vs general video game humor. Both are funny and will get a laugh...but I bet the movie will get more because more points of view were part of the development of it. thats all this guy is really saying. I don't think he is saying that the current society is evil, its just more narrow minded.

Joe McGinn
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Why would you be at work late at night?



Or to put it another way: maybe women are smart enough not to choose an industry that's likely to keep them there late at night?

Elizabeth Boylan
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I'm a female developer and an artist. I consider myself an introvert before I would say 'I'm one of the guys'. I know this about myself because I chose to live with 9 guys my first year of university in a frat house. I thought it was easier to be around guys. Not true, most guys in their 20's are disgusting, especially these guys. Mind you none of these guys would have chosen to become 'developers'. Most developers are introverted. In reality, too much aggressive testosterone or aggressive estrogen will drive any introvert crazy no matter what their gender.



What's happening in the gaming industry is that the heat is up, with new platforms like the iPhone and Android. It's a recession and the war game/ masculine race game is a risky project in an already saturated market for that genre.



But I think this article reflects that male executives are just realizing they need females to guide artistic teams so they can effectively exploit areas and ideas they have previously been blind to due to a lack of diversity.



They're just late to realize that women spend money too, and that 'Barbie' or cooking games aren't fun.

Anna Tito
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There allot of aspects to this issue and it is not only games companies that suffer from it. The balance of women to men is a problem throughout the IT industry particularly in programming. I am now a female programming-designer, however when I first wanted to apply to do programming and computer science in 2003, I was discouraged by my partner at the time and the university who basically refused to discuss the possibility of me doing programming even though I had already proved an aptitude for it as I should do 'more creative courses'. There is a big boysey club in programming, which can be difficult to get around if you aren't sure that you really want to be a programmer etc.



If you take the current imbalance in the required skill sets, find the women motivated to get though all the hoops in the edication system, then find those willing to put up with the poor working conditions in the industry (at least that is what we are told it is like as undergrads) you will end up with a very small pool. If you want more girls in games we need to get more girls into IT related fields generally and they should trickle through. Another aspect is improving the image of the industry as a decent employer, there are so few women in the industry at large that those with a good rep are more likely to get more, and higher skilled, female applicants. Graduate programs are also a good idea, many of the companies I have been looking at are not games companies because all most games companies have no entry paths for new graduates. Just some thoughts :)

Joe McGinn
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Well said Anna!

Anna Tito
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Thanks :)

Elizabeth Boylan
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Well put Anna, the games industry is known for exploiting most of it's employees.



I was always turned off by what I learnt about the salaries and work hours. I also wasn't so keen to have my ideas turned down by a predominantly male executive and to be forced on projects that didn't inspire me. Instead I started my own game dev company. I think that's what most women ought to do.



There's so many tools now available for self publishing like Game Salad, Corona SDK and Unity 3D for more advanced games. For new grads, we're in a new era for employment opportunity. A visual portfolio speaks louder than a degree any day. And when it comes to education, the paradigm is also changing.



There are so many video tutorials on-line and resources to learn. Self-learning and determination go a long way. Technology is always advancing, so with programming, it's a career of continuous learning.

Rebecca Phoa
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Well, even Vikings need Valkyries to get into Valhalla. I suppose any kind of hiring pool is dependent on what is available, and what people ultimately want to do. I want to write for example and writing is what I'm concentrating on; it is a field that both men and women would like to enter equally I think. Of course, writing for games has its own challenges because not all game developers actively look for writers specifically.

John Hahn
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Imbalance happens in both directions. Go look at the student body of any nursing school, or the HR department of any company. You'd be hard pressed to find one that has an equal number of men and women. The ratio of females to males that choose those professions is probably worse than the ratio of males to females in the games industry, but in the opposite direction.



For whatever reason, men seem to favor certain professions and women seem to favor certain professions. Is this because our society encourages them to, or is it because of a biologically driven tendency, or some combination of the 2? I honestly don't know. I doubt it's a simple issue. Most things in the real world aren't.

Maurcio Gomes
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I agree with you.



And I think it is mostly biological, and also result of workplace conditions.



But I won't dwell on that, the last time I did in a forum, people said I was a evil misogynist, and then I linked some research, and people banned me.





Stating that men, and women, are NOT equals are really politically incorrect.

Anna Tito
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I have the urge to ask did you start your life in games on the programming side?

Daniel Gooding
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Honestly I have met plenty of Male HR reps, I never really thought of it as being a one sided thing. Till I applied for game companies.



Only in the game industry have I met nothing but Female HR reps.

John Hahn
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Me? I've never done anything in the games industry besides engineering. I'm a gameplay/AI engineer. Why?

Anna Tito
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Lols no I was asking Mauricio, damn reply formatting. :) allot of guys who believe the discrepancy is somehow biologically related are most often programmers. I have theories on how it comes about but that would take a very very long post :D



I am not into forcing gender balance in any way but just acknowledging why an imbalance might be there, e.g. In the not for profit sector it is something like 85% women in Aus. one part of men not going into it could be it is seen as a touchy feely inudustry or the fact that it it appears like an 'unmanly' industry.

[User Banned]
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This user violated Gamasutras Comment Guidelines and has been banned.

Joe McGinn
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The sentiment is fine but the proposed fix - female-focused recruitment - is a bandaid idea. Fix the problem, not the symptom.



In other words why don't more women work in games? I believe there are profound reasons:

- Women are more social than men, and because of this very few of them like computer programming.

- Computer game art production is, if anything, even more of a solitary grind-away kind of job than programming.

- Women are smart. Even if they are into programming, why choose a lower-paying crunch-worthy job when you get better pay, better working conditions, and better career progression working in a bank?

- Women are smart, even when not driven by external goals like money, they understand at a younger age the importance of balanced QoL in life, of being able, for example, to eat dinner with their families every night and tucking their kids into bed.



The First two problems above on intractable, there is no solution. The first step is not to change recruitment but to change your working conditions. Have a reasonable guarantee of QoL - say, by tracking and paying overtime hours - and you will get both more women and more skilled staff generally applying at your studio.



FYI, women are more interested in production and design than art and programming IME. Half of my design team is female, and half the producers at our studio are female.

Jakub Majewski
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Here's the thing. For decades - like, half a century - film making was an exclusively male domain. With a few (albeit very notable) exceptions, all the film directors were male, all the film crews were male, and only the actresses were female. Somehow, a male-dominated film industry managed to have pretty universal appeal.

Similarly, while there are many books written by female authors, what you will find very rarely is books co-written by male and female authors. Somehow, books written by male authors have as much of a unversal appeal as books written by female authors. In fact, the issue of the author's sex comes up... well, never?

One more example. Theatre, until about the 19th century, was even more exclusively male than film. Not only were the crews all male, but even the actresses were actually male actors - heck, in the case of the Greeks, even the audiences were all male. For some reason, however, we don't hear people criticising the fart jokes in Hamlet or Romeo & Juliet. And you know, somehow, Shakespeare and Sophocles do manage to retain some small degree of universal appeal...



What I'm getting at, is this - bringing more women into the industry absolutely won't change anything. I'm not saying this because I don't want to see more female game developers. I really don't mind - don't care, even. It just won't make a difference. It won't even alter our company cultures, for much the same reason that the army hasn't gotten less macho since women started enlisting.



The example of God of War is a great case in point. As has been pointed out here, the game was written by a woman. Well, gosh darn it, I never would have expected that - I mean, if I was throwing around examples of immature male-oriented titles, God of War would probably be right on top of the list. What difference did it make, having a female writer? Is it possible that the game would have been more macho had it been written by a man...?



All in all, games are frequently immature, often utterly childish - ironically, the higher the rating, the more likely this is, with 17+ rated games often having story and dialogues that could only be interesting for adolescents. But if we want to deal with this immaturity, if we want to do something to establish a broader cultural appeal - we'll need much deeper analysis than merely "bring on the girls".

Rebecca Phoa
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There is a reason for why there were no actresses in Shakespeare or Greek theatre: acting was seen as a disgraceful sub-par occupation and subsequently women were banned from it.



Writing is not 'always' something that must be drawn on gender lines. The writing is tuned to what is needed for that game to work. Susan O'Connor wrote the scripts for Bioshock and Gears of War. She has over 10+ years of game writing experience in many different genres--she's written for a lot of different games. Most of the romance dialogues in Bioware games are written by men--there are no women writers on the Mass Effect team, yet every fan girl swoons over Thane. It doesn't mean that if you have a writer who is a woman, your epic WW2 game will turn into Pearl Harbor (which we can argue is more of a romance film that just happens to take place in a war).



I understand where Hocking is coming from; he is proposing to open up the industry to differing perspectives; that women and ethically diverse people could provide. This could in turn increase overall quality of the games.

Jakub Majewski
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That's my point exactly - writing, nor any other aspect of game production, is not drawn on gender lines. You can get a woman to write Gears of War or God of War. You can get a man to write romance. It does not matter. And for that precise reason, I do not buy any quality-based arguments in favour of greater sexual and ethnic diversity. If women want to make games, great, they're welcome to - but let's not be stupid enough to assume that having more women on a team will auto-magically improve the product.

Rebecca Phoa
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Well this issue is complex; Hocking put up maybe 1 perspective whereas if we took other developers into account, they would have different things to say. He is suggesting A solution; you don't have to agree with it.



Hiring more women and different people is more proactive in the short term, than doing nothing at all. Going towards a real meritocratic/equal society is the long term view. It has nothing to do with games--this is something that humanity has fought with for centuries.

Jonathan Lawn
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I think most people here think that the games industry could be more than it is now. That the output could improve in terms of top-end quality and diversity of appeal. In general, I'd say that homogenous teams are good at pushing in a particular direction (a kind of depth-first search) but diverse teams are better at finding new avenues and being creative (breadth-first). The similarity of most AAA titles (cover-based FPSs and fantasy RPGs) suggests that perhaps the AAA-side of the industry at least needs more diversity in its teams and leadership. I don't think anyone wants committee-based design, but anyone working on a game can influence it in some way: edge it in a particular direction, or increase the chance of a seismic shift.



The film industry did manage a fair diversity without too many women at the top, I suspect. TV (in the UK at least) looked very stagnant for a while (80s say) and the improvement may have come with the opening up of the recruitment.



AAA games? I think the point about working conditions is good. For a male geek, working on AAA games has a lot of appeal, despite any conditions. For others - including members of the untapped audience - the creative side may still appeal, but it won't overcome the poor pay/conditions.



My suggestion? Companies that makes it a primary policy to have sociable, flexible working conditions and no crunches or "macho" excessive hours. It'll take good producers to manage that, but other tech companies (like my own) benefit from it. Not only do you get low turnover and therefore efficiency, you also appeal to a wider range of employees (including producers). More women coming in would be a key indicator that you were achieving this.



Any prime examples out there? I've no experience, but you'd hope there were. Valve? Ubisoft? Does the current relationship with publishers make this very difficult to achieve?

Elizabeth Boylan
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Thank You Jonathan!



Game production needs to push all aspects of creative expression, the story, the art, the sound and the game play. It represents the most challenging production for any artistic team.



We don't necessarily 'need' female developers per se, we certainly need culture in games to inspire players. We're all starved in this respect when it comes to games. But not just games, what about film, music, and books, how many are truly great and memorable? 80% are typically junk, pop art, dumbed down crap. When people are being exploited they aren't inspired and although they may begin with enthusiasm, they do the minimum to keep their job.



Not to mention poor conditions like long work hours, are detrimental to creativity. Artists and developers need to have fun to fuel creativity. Unfortunately, most employers' priorities aren't culture or creativity.

James Booth
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Not buying the argument that in order to expand our market (or something), we need to start getting more women into game development. No mention of stronger stories in games, better writing, accessibility or higher depth. Or how about more cooperative play instead of competitive, more character building or RPGs, or better ways to connect with others? Nah, game designers are immature and we just need more women because it helps. I agree to an extent: It does help to expand the dating pool whenever I attend the GDC.

Harlan Sumgui
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wrt to aaa game appeal, I think a comparison to big budget animated movies is appropriate.



Pre-pixar, mainstream animated movies were written in a specific way that really only appealed to children. Once companies discovered how insanely profitable universal appeal animated movies could be, we started getting features with some depth and non-kid humour. The appeal of movies like UP, Wall-e, Shrek, How to Train Your Dragon transcends age and thus can tap the entire population. That of course costs money. Talented writers and animators come with a price. It's much easier and cheaper to shovel out kiddie cartoons, and if there was no pixar, that probably what animated films would still be.



AAA game dev needs a pixar. A company headed by a visionary who will put out a quality product made by talented people that transcends the typical gamer demo.



I'm not overly optimistic that will ever happen though. Visionaries are rare, and game companies inherently conservative.

John Hahn
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Obviously this isn't AAA, but the closest we've seen so far is Zynga. I don't understand the appeal, but social games seem to have nearly universal appeal. The size of Zynga's user base makes Blizzard's look tiny.



I doubt we'll see universal appeal in a AAA title. With animated movies, you can simultaneously have obvious humor that the kids laugh at and subtle humor that the adults laugh at. That's one reason why they have universal appeal.



However, I would argue that games are different because they require interaction by the user. Forgetting themes and stories of games and just talking about gameplay mechanics for a second: It's very difficult to design a game that has mechanics that are simple enough for grandma and yet also sophisticated enough for the average RPG, RTS, or FPS gamer. Point is, the issue is more than just the subject matter of games, it's also the level/type of skill required to play it that prevents AAA from having universal appeal across all demographics.

Bart Stewart
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If diversity of thinking among game developers really would lead to a greater variety of computer games (and I'm inclined to think it might), then let's have some consistency in applying that principle.



Since the industry is dominated by youngish liberal males, the greatest diversity (and thus the most improvement in games) would come from actively reaching out to hire women, middle-aged persons, and conservatives. Sarah Palin as a game developer would be the dream applicant. ;)



Or is diversity of thought -- leading to more diverse games -- not the real goal?

Gary LaRochelle
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Just wondering: How many female game developers work at LucasArts?

J Benjamin Hollman
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After reading this entire comment thread, it is seeming less and less likely to me that the most viable way to convince this industry of its gender balance issues is through direct intellectual discourse.



It's kind of like trying to comb a knot of hair out of your cat's back; there is a chance that the cat will feel relief in that one spot, but will mostly just think that you are trying to tear its skin off to make a fine fur hat.



I say leave the woman-haters to their devices and drown them out with games, games, and more games! We need more to base our arguments on than The Sims, anyway. That's starting to see diminishing returns.





...Besides, when you talk to your cat too much, people start to think you're nuts.



Take my word on it.

John Hahn
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Your implication is that companies actively turn down female applicants, and if all the "woman-haters" changed their minds there would magically be more females in the industry.



I think the real reason there are so few females in the industry is because there are so few female applicants, not because the industry refuses to hire them. The question then becomes, should we try to coerce women to join this industry that otherwise wouldn't be interested? I question the wisdom in that line of thinking.

bridgette patrovsky
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As a female developer, I think this issue has improved quite a bit over the last 10+ years. In the 90s at Interplay, it was common for teams to spend evenings at strip clubs bonding for projects... didn't quite work for me. LOL



Give it some time, at this rate of improvement, it will sort itself out.



Bridgette

David Serrano
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Read between the lines. Hocking is saying hiring more women is a means to an end. The goal being the industry growing up and reflecting the preferences and maturity level of the now older and more diverse audience.

Rebecca Phoa
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I am wondering if the IGDA or any other video game-related organization has done a recent census of all the employees in the game industry based on gender, creed, class, ethnicity, orientation, country, salary, etc. I know Game Developer Magazine has a salary survey, but if there are really these people related gaps in game development companies; then a more comprehensive study should be done.



If there are real 'problems,' they should be fairly noticeable. When I attended a program for game art at my local college, there were exactly 2 women in the Digital Animation and 1 woman (me) in the Game Art/Level Design programs. All together, maybe we were 30 or so strong students in both programs. I think the numbers increased after I graduated (maybe 1 to 3 more?), but the pull was fairly thin when I attended. I think the diversity of both programs was good.



I did not think it was a problem at the time (if Clint Hocking pointed it out though--let's face it, if this wasn't something he felt strongly about, he wouldn't mention it). I guess I'm so used to being around guys, I had no real problem adjusting. But it was a bit awkward at times.

Jonathan Pierce
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Some may find it interesting to note that when I was in university we would often hear lecturers complain that there aren't enough women in the computing industry and we were encouraged to avoid putting women off the idea by showing a "boys club" mentality.



This meant things like "no pictures of half naked 3d models on the wall" and "when your designing a game, please make sure to remember girls make up a large portion of the potential audience."



I personally don't think that the games industry needs more girls simply to aid in the development of more games for girls or games with more universal appeal. I believe that it's perfectly possible for males to design good games aimed at women. I think the important thing is that having a larger group of women working with any development team will add more perspectives which can, in turn, lead to better games.



For example, me and my male friends often talk about games we would make but, sadly, we mostly agree (although it is only partly because we're male). This means we never really have to defend our designs to each other and so we miss out on that influence that could help fine tune our ideas. Our conversations only get really interesting when some of our female friends join in because, often, they will ask us to give them a better understanding of why this particular idea would be good. On top of that, they often show an interest in topics and areas me and my friends don't. This means they can often provide new perspective to a conversation.

John Hahn
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I can tell you that both my undergraduate and graduate school had next to no female engineers at all.


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